A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[YorkNecromancer]

You know what? You've converted me. The way you've shouted down the women and feminist allies here has shown me the error of my ways to ever have spoken out. Women are free to speak their mind without every being disbelieved; they and I were wrong to ever suggest otherwise. There is obviously no such thing as sexism; if there was, we'd just automatically believe everything they said. It's good you're really interrogating their evidence with far more rigor than any other evidence offered. That really shows these women how wrong they are to even dare to speak out and think they'll be believed. Women experience life just like men do - to suggest otherwise is obvious nonsense. We have the same experiences of bullying, body shaming, fat shaming, and a woman who doesn't have as many sexual conquests as possible can't be considered a real woman, and more than a man with more than one is anything but a slut. We gave them the vote because we're part of a fair and equal society, not because the suffrage movement fought tooth and nail for it. The statistics here simply cannot be trusted, and no evidence they give can possibly be true.

It's good you're here, brave enough to point out every false statistic and idea these women bring up. None of us are sexists, because sexists are evil men, and we're all good guys. That's just how it is. People are either sexist or they aren't; individual actions don't mean a thing.

And we can't stop these sexists anyway. It's not like we're going to grow up to have sons that we'll raise and teach about the right way to treat women. We can't change our society or culture. We have our traditions and our ways and that's all there is to it. All traditions should always be unquestioningly followed and never challenged, ever.

And anyone who says there's one so deaf as those that won't listen is just a sanctimonious prig who doesn't understand how the world works.

[Thor Summer]

Hopefully this may defuse some of the tension in here... I believe myself a feminist, I believe that all were created equal by God, and all should have an equal right to everything and to try anything, as long as it is not harmful to others. I think what rankles with people is what rankled with me about Christianity for a long time... a blanket statement of being told explicitly you are a sinner, with no exception. While I am terminating this analogy now because the two topics now diverge, I get the reaction. I hate the 'all men oppress women' angle, too. I do not fall into the category of misogynist, I respect all people of all creeds, colours, kinds, sexes etc. As equal as I am able.

The trouble is, we get so lost in feeling righteous in ourselves we forget that just because we don't/won't do it, doesn't mean others don't/won't. This needs to stop. Hopefully the Girl Summit and other things can really help.

This is not an attack, but sometimes the girls and guys in here, whose cause I feel is righteous, can be a bit spikey and overly passionate, without picking on people, EldarGal, you do love to go on a rant, and it can hurt your cause (you may get justifiably angry, but you have placed yourself in the unenviable position of being a leader of sorts of this discussion, and also one of the people I look at and respect for their views, I always think a leader should maintain a cool head in all circumstances, this means shouting and insults harm your stance, tough, I know, but I'm just being honest). I personally applaud you for your quest to bring a discussion like this to a largely dude-populated area like wargaming, and hopefully we all learn from it, I know I have.

Basically I'm trying to say one woman getting raped for any reason is wrong, and must be stopped, that people get away with it must also stop. Sexism must be halted and women given an equal chance to prove, just like a male, that they can do a job they apply for to the standard that makes them the best candidate for any given job. If we all simmer down and stop shouting and getting stuck on small specifics we can generate a meaningful discussion. Not all men are sexist or rapists or nasty, but too many are. Those of us that are not need to help adjust the minds of those who are currently blind to their own silliness or more worryingly sinister or actually harmful and evil thinking/behaviour.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Incorrect data is incorrect data, from a woman or a man. This isn't the first time I've disassembled an argument based on cobbled statistics, though I didn't stop to ask which gender the others on scientific boards were. I don't idly believe statistics thrown at me by anyone, blame Facebook for erasing my naivete with its deluge of BS statistics people chainmail around to each other. I actually aim to verify facts and note the sources when I post them.

We have the same experiences of bullying, body shaming, fat shaming

Really struggling to see why you're trying to imply men don't get bullied by other men just to prove your point, as if you're unaware of obese kids getting picked on in school, were you that oblivious? Just because it's more severe for women, doesn't mean you can wash it away for any kids but the girls.

The old, "my problem is worse than your's so shut up," logic is stupidly fallible. If people aren't allowed to be sad when you are sadder, are they allowed to be happy when you are happier?

It's not like we're going to grow up to have sons that we'll raise and teach about the right way to treat women.

Oh yes, I was absolutely going to teach mine how to use chloroform and sneak-attack techniques before I saw this thread, praise be that I found it. Jeez, kiddo, give the adults here some credit.

[eldargal]

I'd be interested to know where this rape statistic comes from, because what I've been reading it's a very dubious claim.



Source [url]http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/lies-damned-lies-and-rape-statistics/[/url]

Now obviously the source I've linked can be rightly argued as being biased, I've read this same conclusion in many other places. This rape statistic is not only old fashioned but the study twisted it's findings to suit it's cause, reclassifying rape to produce the desired results. All the "facts" here in this thread have been from biased sources yet were supposed to except them as truth and if we dare question these facts were immediately labeled as sexist. I feel like this thread is basically an agenda to make men feel guilty for being men using confirmation bias sources. Unfortunately I also feel far too many here are too busy proving how liberal they are to see what a disservice is being done. I know exactly the response I'm going to get from this post. I will be labeled as this or that, or a man cry baby as I have been before. Because the times I've dared disagree before some have resorted to name calling. Moderators are supposed to be impartial here on BoLs. I think otherwise.
I will be honest I'm done with the brand of feminism in this thread, it does an injustice to whist I know is a true feminist, I live with one and aspire to her ideals.

You' re coming into a feminism topic and citing A Voice For Men? The group started by Paul Elam the notorious misogynist who said he would always acquit a rapist if he were a juror regardless of how guilty he was? [URL="manboobz.blogspot.com/2010/11/paul-elams-vanishing-post-blaming-and.html"]Who ays stuff like this[/URL]:

I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks, playing on their sexual desires so they can get **** faced on the beta dole; paying their bar tab with the ***** pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes ... these women end up being the "victims" of rape.

But are these women asking to get raped?...

They are freaking begging for it.

Damn near demanding it. ...

[T]here are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I'M A STUPID, CONNIVING ***** - PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.

You;re going to take the word of his ****ing misogynit MRa organisation over the word of thousands of rape support groups, government and non-government agencies just because feminism hurts your ****ing feelings?

[URL="https://mancheeze.wordpress.com/tag/paul-elam/"]Why don't you go educate yourself about Paul Elam[/URL] and a Voice For Men before spouting their filth here. You go and tell your feminist wife you've been citing a man who believes men are entitled to rape, who endorses hunting down feminists personal details and posting them on the internet and who says stuff like this:


And you turn around say my arguments aren't credible. A Voice For Men isn't 'biased' ITs an organisation dedicated to attacking feminism, attacking women and its members are known for hunting down the personal details of feminists and posting them online. That includes their phone number and home addresses putting their lives in genuine ****ing danger. They aren't biased they are a ****ing terrorist organisation targeting women. AVFM is actually [URL="http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites"]listed as a hate group for gods sakes[/URL]. Yet my arguments aren't credible.

[eldargal]

Splitting long post in two.

*Deep breath*

Ok CoffeeGrunt et al:

My point is, as the vicious, vile, stinking, evil, conniving, scheming man I clearly must be, why should I care? Why. Should. I. Care? I've tried, I really have tried to understand you, to try and level with you, talk to you, understand what can be done and what must be done. And yet, each time all I and the other guys in this thread get is s**t.

Because standing by and ignoring the systemic discrimination of women makes you complicit in it. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing, and all that. You also benefit from the social privileges given to men. You can't help that, it doesn't make you bad. But what you need to do is understand how it works. Sexism is not clearly evil guys doing evil things, it is regular men and women poisoned by a culture which tells them how to behave and what is appropriate. There are two things you need to do a) listen to women when they talk about problematic behaviour and try not to do it yourself b) Don't let the men around you get away with behaving in a sexist way. Demeaning women, making sexist jokes, making rape jokes, generally treating women like they are less important.

How is "not all men" invalid? Because you're too narrow-minded to see beyond your bigoted view of a group that, let me just tell you sister, covers HALF THE HUMAN POPULATION ON EARTH? Try and imagine just how many people you are generalising and stereotyping. THREE-POINT-FIVE BILLION PEOPLE.

Because no one is saying all men do it. The problem with not all men is that it is based on the erroneous assumption women are saying ALL men do this. Most men DO NOT, but ALL women suffer from it. When you prioritise defending yourself over combating the problem you are actually making your reputation more important than the issue. You are saying 'sure, lots of women will be sexually assaulted but I won't do it so why should i care?'. There are a lot of problems with it. Beyond making a feminist issue about men, it creates a strawman (the claim that all men are being accused) and instead of being able to discuss the issue it becomes about massaging mens feelings and assuring them that no, we don't believe you are all rapists.

Are you saying that THREE-POINT-FIVE BILLION PEOPLE are all entitled, living in the highest echelons of society with women as footstools? That all of them rape and kill their wives on a daily basis, (even the gay and asexual ones!) That all of them are totally immersed in entitled feelings for women? (Again! Even the gay and asexual ones?!)

No, we are saying there is a culture that facilitates this kind of behaviour. I posted some good links on discussing what male entitlement is. It is not literally every single man believing they are entitled, it is a culture of male entitlement that facilitates patterns of behave which victimise women of which the spreadsheet is a small relatively harmless part. At one end is boyfriend getting annoyed their girlfriend won't have sex with hem, on the other is people like Elliot Rodger who are so outraged that women aren't giving them hte attention they deserve that they kill over it.

That absolutely none of them really support feminist rights, or are trying to help woman break the glass ceiling? So, what, they're not worthy to join and fight unless there's a V between their legs?

No one is saying that at all. There are plenty of men who are trying hard to smash the patriarchy and make a better world for everyone. When we talk about 'men' we are not referring to them, but those actively engaged in problematic behaviour.

I wasn't arguing against that, I was arguing against that single case being used as proof that all men act in such ways.

It's a single case that fits into a culture, it is not a single case that is proof that all men act that way because all men DO NOT act that way. It's just an example of how insidious and widespread the culture of male entitlement is.

When we say 'there is a culture that tells men that...' we are not saying all men listen, we are just saying there is effectively this voice whispering in peoples ear telling them this **** is ok and if you aren't aware of this voice you can start to believe it. It is NOT just men either, women are susceptible. A disturbing number of women do not think their husband or boyfriend forcing or coercing them into sex is rape, for example, and it is extremely common as a result.


Edit:[URL="http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/"] A good article examining 'Not All Men'[/URL]. [URL="http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_der ailed.html"]Another one[/URL] which goes into a bit more detail as to why it is a problematic reaction.

Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don’t need you to tell them.

Second, it’s defensive. When people are defensive, they aren’t listening to the other person; they’re busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. I watched this happen on Twitter, over and again.

Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it. The discussion isn’t about the men who aren’t a problem. (Though, I’ll note, it can be. I’ll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

Fourth—and this is important, so listen carefully—when a woman is walking down the street, or on a blind date, or, yes, in an elevator alone, she doesn’t know which group you’re in. You might be the potential best guy ever in the history of history, but there’s no way for her to know that. A fraction of men out there are most definitely not in that group. Which are you? Inside your head you know, but outside your head it’s impossible to.

[Charon]

This is actually one of the best posts I have read here.

I guess the biggest problem with "not all men" is, that it used the same kind of rethoric that racist nutjobs in my country use.
"Foreign residents are criminals. They were raised in a religion of violence..." Can we safely use this rethoric just to say "We know not all of them are criminals but you cant know for sure" and be ok with it?

I must confess the reason why I support the feminist movement is partly selfish. In the long run it will help men with a lot of issues and lighten the burden that society sets on them. Male dominance is not only unhealthy for women, men also suffer from this.
The other part is curiosity. Cause even in a perfectly equal society where all the subjects are solved, we will still have rape and murder (the reasons may be different but the crime stays the same). We will face problems where women are asked to surrender their advantages (like no forced military service and shorter work times despite of longer lifespan in my country) und we will see which solutions there will be when 50% of peole have 100% power over the reproduction cycle.

[Morgrim]

Just addressing the last point, there will NEVER be a situation where 50% of people (ie only women) have total control over reproduction. There are multiple forms of contraception available to both sexes, if a man doesn't want to have a child then he should be making use of at least one and preferably two forms of them (which is what women are expected to do in places where they are allowed to). If you're going the other way, with a man wanting a child but claiming that women have the power to deny him, then clearly he needs to go find a women that also wants a child and likes him and is willing to take an equal share in raising that child. Because in an ideal world no child would ever be born unless there was already a loving family that wanted them.

[Charon]

If you're going the other way, with a man wanting a child but claiming that women have the power to deny him, then clearly he needs to go find a women that also wants a child and likes him and is willing to take an equal share in raising that child.

So how is that not "beeing dependant"?

Because in an ideal world no child would ever be born unless there was already a loving family that wanted them.

So I guess women who get in vitro fertilization are a bad parent then?

[daboarder]

So I guess women who get in vitro fertilization are a bad parent then?

Charon, morgrim makes no stipulation on what constitutes a loving family. A family is at least a single guardian who cares.
Though to be fair, there are families that cannot have children of their own and must adopt/find a surrogate parent

[Charon]

Not the way it was put here as a men "needs to go find a women that also wants a child and likes him and is willing to take an equal share in raising that child"
Thats why im curious about this topic (if all other issues are solved) because 100% control over reproduction IS power.