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  1. #8481
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    What I was actually doing was trying to highlight that what you said there was kinda weirdly personal and, yes, did sound like you were saying she doesn't know what it's like to be able to judge feminist issues.

    And as someone who has experience the modern world as a woman and perceived as a man, I can say that it's a helluva lot ****tier for women, and that most men will say they are good people but do nothing to stop bad behaviour and shout down those who try to as it's "just a joke", "there aren't any girls around to hear it" and all that.

  2. #8482

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    No, I disapprove of bad behaviour in my workplace because you are there to work, not to piss around. If you work hard, you are rewarded, if not, well, you don't get good treatment.

    I said she couldn't judge me.

    Also, because I clearly don't know what it is like to be a woman, how do I know that you're telling the truth about it? Because, y'know, I'm blind to discrimination, because I haven't fought against it for most of my life.
    Red like roses, fills my dreams and brings me to the place where you rest...

  3. #8483
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    Quote Originally Posted by daboarder View Post
    Almost like it states that men can also be subject to systematic gender discrimination....but that can't be right, it says that doesnt happen like a page back in this thread


    edit: dammit, I told myself I was just going to sit back and watch the fireworks this time....sigh
    Oh, right, you got us. Shut down the feminist cabal ladies, give up the right to vote, roll back the laws against marital rape, stop fighting against controls on our bodies, shut down the efforts to end human trafficking and sex slavery - none of that matters (despite the overwhelming evidence) because one person wasn't 100% accurate 100% of the time about something to do with men. This one error has instantly disproven everything else that shows women are overall grossly discriminated against due to their gender compared to men. How did we miss this? We were fools to think the huge amounts of violence, abuse and exploitation women suffer is important when really we should have been expending all our efforts on helping men. I mean haven't the Men's Rights Activists been doing just that? Not helping men I mean, of course they don't do that, but telling feminists our problems are unimportant? How could we be so wrong..?

  4. #8484

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    Someone said Kabal? >.> <.<

    Red like roses, fills my dreams and brings me to the place where you rest...

  5. #8485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzeentch's Dark Agent View Post
    No, I disapprove of bad behaviour in my workplace because you are there to work, not to piss around. If you work hard, you are rewarded, if not, well, you don't get good treatment.

    I said she couldn't judge me.

    Also, because I clearly don't know what it is like to be a woman, how do I know that you're telling the truth about it? Because, y'know, I'm blind to discrimination, because I haven't fought against it for most of my life.
    I think you're really reaching here. It's not that you can't see it or recognise it. But if you say "this isn't a problem/discrimination/offensive etc" and someone in the affected group says "yes it is", you've really gotta trust the effected group. That's the point, that sexism, taken as the overarching discrimination based on gender power imbalance in society (as opposed to sexual discrimination on a personal level for semantic purposes here to be clear) affects women, not men. There are very limited, as Daborder pointed out, cases where it is reversed - but it's all part of the system which says "women and their actions and opinions are subordinate to men."

    I mean look here, EG made a comment explaining the above and Daborder felt it necessary to point out how men are more hard done by than women in some cases. Which is tragic, it really, really is - but it also sadly illustrates the point that a large number of men here have been arguing that their opinions on matters outweigh or are equal to those actual experiences of women. I wouldn't even pretend to think my opinions on racism are equal to those of a non-white person in western society. I can still have them, but if a non-white person tells me something I listen, and if it is at odds with my opinion my opinion is wrong.
    I don't say "but white people are discriminated against too!" because by putting on that "too" on the end I'm turning the conversation away from the issue the people who are systematically discriminated people suffer are talking about to one about me, who in the category of race is not disadvantaged. It's why trying to "disprove" feminism by pointing out men's issues (which are legitimate things that need addressing!) is really shady. It's the rhetorical equivalent of telling a kid who skinned their knees "oh well I broke my arm stop complaining!" I mean 1) it doesn't stop the other person hurting and 2) they're two totally different things.


    Also should be a female DE there really

  6. #8486

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    You can have a female DE, but Yurevan is a bloke.



    I wasn't actually trying to vocalise that men are treated any worse than women in my original point. I was trying to vocalise that every struggle for rights are as important as every other. But EG, as per usual, threw it back in my face and turned it into a "but men can't have opinions" argument.
    Red like roses, fills my dreams and brings me to the place where you rest...

  7. #8487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotthammer View Post
    I think you're really reaching here. It's not that you can't see it or recognise it. But if you say "this isn't a problem/discrimination/offensive etc" and someone in the affected group says "yes it is", you've really gotta trust the effected group.
    Seemed to be the case though, with the shirt, that some of the affected group felt that it was a problem whereas others didn't. It would seem there is a dividing line between something that is sexist / discriminatory / offensive or demeaning to a group of people as a whole versus something that offends an individual.

    As such, can you trust the "person from the affected group" that is offended to separate their own personal feelings about something that has offended them as an individual, and to not take bias from their own sensitivities into making a declaration for their group as a whole?

  8. #8488

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    I was gunna ignore this one, but it's been two days now...

    First off, Eldargal, your opinion on Animal Rights is just plain wrong. The fact an animal cannot say, "I am oppressed," is not a means to deny that Animal Rights is an important thing. In fact, the fact they can't talk to us is the most important part - it's compassion for less intelligent beings that don't possess our cognitive problem solving abilities to escape it.

    I challenge you to walk through Bernard Mathews' plant, and tell me you don't see distress, you don't see animals expressing discomfort, oppression and illness. It would speak to a massive lack of empathy for others if you were able to ignore all that.

    Secondly, you seem to be constructing a hierarchy of who is allowed to discuss an issue. If I were to invite a black lady here, would she be allowed free reign of the conversation with no-one allowed to interject, because she would be both a person of colour and female, and thus incredibly oppressed?

    Yes, guys don't know what it's like to be female, and have to deal with all that crap women deal with daily. However, it's demeaning to your cause to in one breath say Feminism helps men too, but in another to say men should be pushed to the sidelines of a discussion the moment a woman speaks. People can and should discuss an issue, and allow the confluence of viewpoints to build a better picture of things.

    To deny another viewpoint is not open-minded, because every viewpoint comes with flaws and limitations. People like to build a bubble around themselves. It's a bit like a science lecturer never allowing their students to question why a certain theory exists, or getting defensive when someone wants to peek into their methodology for solving a certain problem.

    As far as the original issue, noting that something dumb is a cultural norm doesn't make it less dumb. Women's armour design has been plain stupid for decades, I think Yahtzee put it pretty well in a blog once that most games market to that early-teen demographic, which while interested in sex aren't quite there yet, and thus the armour steadily devolved to just cover only what was absolutely necessary, sort of becoming a map of erogenous zones on a girl, but without showing anything.

    I don't think there's many people who can look at, well, any female character in sci-fi or fantasy and think, "yes, that's a very practical and protective armour set she is wearing."
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  9. #8489

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    I concur, Lelith Hesperax, as shown above, is totally not dressed practically.

    Then again, in my experience, the Dark Eldar don't seem armoured well for war anyway.
    Red like roses, fills my dreams and brings me to the place where you rest...

  10. #8490

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    It's hard to balance, because there's a case for light armour designs being sensible, and a case for game designers using them to just show more skin. It doesn't help that Dark Eldar are deliberately sexualised, so they're probably not the best example of the average, more a deliberate extreme.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

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