A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Kirsten]

there are plenty of things men can say or do. as usual you lot are claiming we are attacking and deriding all men, where in fact no such thing has happened. do you not think it is ironic that every time male privilege comes up, a number of men here all declare not all men! stop attacking men! why do you hate all men?

the simple fact is that men oppress women, society is geared around that. we have provided proof after proof, it is a simple fact of life. what exactly is it that you are arguing against?

over and over myself, Gott, and EG, have explained very simply that the man is out of order because he feels entitled to sex from his wife. but none of you are responding to that, it is just shouting about how we hate all men.

[CoffeeGrunt]

And you are that blind, are you? That narrow sighted that you can't see that "Heterosexual people" is, well, a pretty frigging large and diverse category? That, sure, some of them despise gays, some of them don't mind, and some of them support them fully? That the latter category is probably about the same size as the former? So it's a completely moot point if non-gay people join up, vote for and support a cause that includes zero personal interests?

My point is, as the vicious, vile, stinking, evil, conniving, scheming man I clearly must be, why should I care? Why. Should. I. Care? I've tried, I really have tried to understand you, to try and level with you, talk to you, understand what can be done and what must be done. And yet, each time all I and the other guys in this thread get is s**t.

How is "not all men" invalid? Because you're too narrow-minded to see beyond your bigoted view of a group that, let me just tell you sister, covers HALF THE HUMAN POPULATION ON EARTH? Try and imagine just how many people you are generalising and stereotyping. THREE-POINT-FIVE BILLION PEOPLE.

Are you saying that THREE-POINT-FIVE BILLION PEOPLE are all entitled, living in the highest echelons of society with women as footstools? That all of them rape and kill their wives on a daily basis, (even the gay and asexual ones!) That all of them are totally immersed in entitled feelings for women? (Again! Even the gay and asexual ones?!)

That absolutely none of them really support feminist rights, or are trying to help woman break the glass ceiling? So, what, they're not worthy to join and fight unless there's a V between their legs?

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there are plenty of things men can say or do.

****ing what? What can we say?

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over and over myself, Gott, and EG, have explained very simply that the man is out of order because he feels entitled to sex from his wife. but none of you are responding to that, it is just shouting about how we hate all men.

I wasn't arguing against that, I was arguing against that single case being used as proof that all men act in such ways.

[Kirsten]

you are the one launching the attacks here, but somehow I am narrow sighted.

men oppress women, and heterosexual people oppress gay people. we have stated over and over and over again that men are not all evil, that plenty of men are pro women. that does not make you exempt from everything going on in the world. the simple fact is all manner of men will abuse women every single day. verbally, physically, sexually. see the above statistic, one in three women will be sexually assaulted. clearly that means an extremely large proportion of men are in fact misogynists. you say 'not three point five billion' yet it could easily be one billion men that sexually assault women. is that acceptable to you? if you have a group of male friends with you, at least one them has probably assaulted a woman. is that ok? is it ok to say 'well it isn't me, I am pro women, it is just those other men'? one billion women have been, will be, sexually assaulted. is that ok? do you not understand why that makes women angry? one billion women assaulted, but hey, it hasn't been me yet, so it is fine, I don't have to worry about them.

we have said over and over again that it is men that we need to be feminists, we want support, we want help. why is that a problem? you have not been attacked at any point in this thread, yet the fact we have pointed out that men feel entitled to sex and suddenly you take it as a personal attack, and start screaming 'narrow sighted man haters!'

what part of the evidence is it that you find uncomfortable?

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I wasn't arguing against that, I was arguing against that single case being used as proof that all men act in such ways.

what makes him feel that way? what gives him his sense of entitlement? society is geared around the idea of men getting women, they get told all the time that they deserve to have women, that real men have girlfriends, wives etc. women are portrayed as inferior left right and centre. we spoke elsewhere about the lack of female characters in games, I believe you wanted more female characters. why do you think only one in ten lead characters are female, if not social bias? did all the developers decide it at random and happen to have the same idea out of the blue? what about men 'getting the girl' at the end of films?

it is impossible for women to have a sense of entitlement because women have no power, women cannot feel entitled to anything, when their chances of getting it are so restricted. men get the jobs, the salaries, own the land, they feel entitled to it, because that is always how it is. you only have to look at the cabinet reshuffle. journalists, no doubt good, upstanding men who support women, reporting on it and asking why the women got the jobs, wont they have to prove themselves capable. it is that sort of insidious sexism, that stuff people don't think about, that does the harm.

[Kirsten]

if the issue is not with men, then who exactly owns 99% of the land? earns 90% of the wealth? is it aliens? who is it out there raping one billion women? maybe it is robots. I bet it's robots.

[Wolfshade]

That 1% land stat is still wrong.

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The 10% wealth is also worrying

[Kirsten]

the statistics do not cover wealthy countries, they come from Oxfam regarding poor countries.

[CoffeeGrunt]

That would depend on your definition of ownership. Given that some 80% of land belongs to the crown/state of most countries in the world which are composed of that land, how do you define the owner when it is a government? Head of State?

I mean, the Queen [URL="http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3?op=1"]reportedly owns 6.6 Billion acres of land[/URL], and the Earth itself is composed of 37 billion acres of habitable land. She alone owns 1/6th or about 17% of the landmass on Earth, apparently. Again, this only really shows how awkward a metric that is to work with.

men oppress women, and heterosexual people oppress gay people. we have stated over and over and over again that men are not all evil, that plenty of men are pro women.

You make a statement that men oppress women, then immediately go on to say that you have said not all men are evil?

the simple fact is all manner of men will abuse women every single day. verbally, physically, sexually. see the above statistic

Please link the source and methodology.

if you have a group of male friends with you, at least one them has probably assaulted a woman. is that ok?

I wouldn't befriend people that would do that sort of thing.

one billion women assaulted, but hey, it hasn't been me yet, so it is fine, I don't have to worry about them.

When did I say that was okay? Most of my frustration stemmed from the women in this thread slinging poop at the male gender without offering anything said people could do to help. Seriously, what do I do? What do you do? This thread is just horrible stories and so far I haven't seen someone go, "okay, we do this, or that, or this, and we keep trying." It's just piling stories dredged from the worst of humanity and making everyone miserable just to remember how being a girl is suffering.

we have said over and over again that it is men that we need to be feminists, we want support, we want help. why is that a problem? you have not been attacked at any point in this thread

See previous re: no-one is telling us how we can help, just piling nasty stories and articles about how crap men are into here.

what part of the evidence is it that you find uncomfortable?

The confirmation bias it's being presented with. You look for articles proving men are bad, you find articles proving men are bad, because that's how finding stuff on the internet works.

what makes him feel that way? what gives him his sense of entitlement? society is geared around the idea of men getting women, they get told all the time that they deserve to have women, that real men have girlfriends, wives etc.

Indeed, and then most grow up and understand that it isn't a given that you will get a girlfriend, but maybe some day.

I believe you wanted more female characters. why do you think only one in ten lead characters are female, if not social bias?

Actually the figure is [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Prevalence"]4% for fixed choice, but 45% for optional choices [/URL]in shooters, RPGs and action games. That said, that probably falls below the mark in general, as I imagine that's RPGs holding up the percentage there.

It probably doesn't help that top-selling games tend to follow the same formulas as movies nowadays, and that includes a lack of decent female characters except as sidekicks. Not that some of said sidekicks aren't very well-done characters, though.

you take it as a personal attack, and start screaming 'narrow sighted man haters!'

Quote that phrase out of one of my posts. Go ahead, I can wait.

[Wolfshade]

No, that is wrong, EG and I have been over the land one before it is an uncited 1970s UN report on women's ownership of agricultural land, which itself is quite flawed, but I am happy to accept that there was not gender equality then or even now. Often the farm goes to the eldest son, or indeed the daughter does not go into farming (for all the historic reasons) and so again it goes to the son.

I have previously demonstrated how that statistic is wrong since the Queen in her own right owns somewhere in the region of 1/6th of the land. The continued use of it as extrapolated from agricultural land to the world's land mass is highly corrosive to any statement based on that.

The 10th earnings is from a similar era UN report from "several countries" and notes that women tend to earn 10%-30% what male counterparts do in low economic jobs, and since they also only make up "a third of the work force" you then multiply these two figures together and end up with 11% which is rounded to 10% for presentation reasons.

I am quite happy to accept that women do earn less, that they are less employed and do earn less land, however what I am not happy with is the accuracy of this data.

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Indeed the UNESCO figure states that 875 million people are illiterate, this states that it is 875 million, while not mutually exclusive, the numbers similiarity do set off warning bells.

Again, I can accept that the majority of that 875 million are females, indeed, simple gender divide would suggest it is at least half, then add on the extra value that males have especially in 3rd world countries and it is likely to be higher.

[Deadlift]

if the issue is not with men, then who exactly owns 99% of the land? earns 90% of the wealth? is it aliens? who is it out there raping one billion women? maybe it is robots. I bet it's robots.

I'd be interested to know where this rape statistic comes from, because what I've been reading it's a very dubious claim.

Statistic: “1 out of every 4 women will be raped in her lifetime.”

Truth: Ah, here’s the doozy. I’m sure we’re all familiar with the source of this statistic: a study by Mary Koss that has been discredited countless times. Around three-quarters of the women she identified as having been raped did not consider themselves victims of rape, and almost half of them had sex with their supposed attackers after the event identified as a rape had occurred.

Source [url]http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/lies-damned-lies-and-rape-statistics/[/url]

Now obviously the source I've linked can be rightly argued as being biased, I've read this same conclusion in many other places. This rape statistic is not only old fashioned but the study twisted it's findings to suit it's cause, reclassifying rape to produce the desired results. All the "facts" here in this thread have been from biased sources yet were supposed to except them as truth and if we dare question these facts were immediately labeled as sexist. I feel like this thread is basically an agenda to make men feel guilty for being men using confirmation bias sources. Unfortunately I also feel far too many here are too busy proving how liberal they are to see what a disservice is being done. I know exactly the response I'm going to get from this post. I will be labeled as this or that, or a man cry baby as I have been before. Because the times I've dared disagree before some have resorted to name calling. Moderators are supposed to be impartial here on BoLs. I think otherwise.
I will be honest I'm done with the brand of feminism in this thread, it does an injustice to whist I know is a true feminist, I live with one and aspire to her ideals.

[Wolfshade]

Note quite, the rape stat I am not going to touch as people have issues with self-reporting stats, but ho hum

The deaths in labour does work out to be 0.5/per minute (1 every two minutes) Source: WHO (289,000)
[[url]http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/][/url]

and the number of child brides is an extrapolation of current trends (taking into account for population growth) averaged to a day

"If current levels of child marriages hold, 14.2 million girls annually or 39 000 daily will marry too young [Between 2011 and 2020]"

Source: WHO (39,000)
[url]http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2013/child_marriage_20130307/en/[/url]