A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Gotthammer]

Not all women have kids. Not all women take a long time off of work to have kids (like some women take 4-6 weeks off, hardly a great amount of time). Also I doubt that we will see an average of 4% or more lower pay for men who take paternity leave.

[Psychosplodge]

No, you're right you shouldn't be affected if you don't take the time out.
paternity leave is shorter isn't it? I'm sure if it was six months to a year we would?

[CoffeeGrunt]

4% doesn't seem like a large margin, it's a pretty acceptable margin for error in empirical terms. As has already been stated, disparities between businesses make "equal jobs" a pretty difficult thing to pinpoint. Unless two identical jobs are at the same firm in the same country with the same workload and the same progression possibilities, they're not equal jobs and thus one will naturally be favourable than the other. Now, are wealthier firms denying women these higher-paid positions? At 4%, not massively, it seems.

There is also maternity leave, which will Gott has noted all women don't take maternity leave, it doesn't require all women to take it for those that do to bring down the average. For example, in my department we've had two people take maternity in the last year, with my manager leaving soon. Additionally, those that returned took on part-time positions rather than full-time - voluntarily - which reduced their income further so they could spend more time with their child. However there are many women here who haven't done so and don't intend on having kids.

Again, merely the workings of one firm in a small town in England, but the problem is that every company is different and some careers may attract a more career-focused, less maternal breed of woman than others. Given that my department is mostly about trying to save whales and dolphins in the oil and gas industry, for which we receive little thanks from our clients, it's probably not one of those. I also haven't known a man to take paternal leave, but that's just my experience.

[Charon]

Depends on what you take into account.
In austria all men must either serve in the military or do a social year. Free workforce (while women can already start) as you get paid around € 300 a month (you dont get any extras for night, shift, weekend and overtime) for up to 60h/week. Also retirement is 65 years for men and 60 years for women.
Its also incredible hard to get time off from work as men cause the paternity leave is a ferociously defended women "privilege". Men can take their time off from work if they really want, but without any kind of payment.
Remains largely ignored in these statistics.

But I guess you could dot the same studies with blonde men compared to dark haired men or even better handsome men compared to ugly men and you would probably get a wage gap too. There are lots of studys impying that beautiful people are more successful.

[eldargal]

Also remember that womens participation in the workforce is lower and women make up the bulk of part time workers too, for a variety of reasons. Also according o the EU the pay gap between men and women [URL="http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/files/gender_pay_gap/gpg_brochure_2013_final_en.pdf"]in Austria is 24%[/URL]. Remember that however you cut it, a paygap should not exist at all. Regardless of variables across industries it illustrates that women earn less than men, which has all kinds of flow on effects on the quality of womens lives. Men can be more independent and take more risks like moving to a new place to look for work, they can also save more and so forth.

[Charon]

Also according o the EU the pay gap between men and women in Austria is 24%. Remember that however you cut it, a paygap should not exist at all.

And this is exactly the study that was proven to be comparing the incomparable.
A paygap WILL ALWAYS EXIST. A paygap even exists between the same gender in the same job. This is no women issue, this is an economic issue. Unless you want to go full communism, there will always be a gap.
0 % is not realistic in the slightest. This is not how economy works.
Truck driver Joe can easily earn 50 % more money as truck driver Jim just because they are working for different companies. How you make that paygap vanish without resorting to (proven false) communist measurements?

[Wolfshade]

Why can men be more independent and take more risks?

[eldargal]

And this is exactly the study that was proven to be comparing the incomparable.
A paygap WILL ALWAYS EXIST. A paygap even exists between the same gender in the same job. This is no women issue, this is an economic issue. Unless you want to go full communism, there will always be a gap.
0 % is not realistic in the slightest. This is not how economy works.
Truck driver Joe can easily earn 50 % more money as truck driver Jim just because they are working for different companies. How you make that paygap vanish without resorting to (proven false) communist measurements?

Yeah, no. You can compare it because it is easily compared. Men and women work, one group gets paid more. If things were equal they would not. Of course there are variables within that, women still get paid less. There are mountains of data on this, people like to cherry pick certain elements to try and demonstrate why claims of a paygap are wrong but the simple fact is men get paid more than women. There are pay gaps between men of course, it varies on experience etc. But between a man and a woman in the same job with the same experience the man will nearly always earn more. A paygap based on experience, seniority or other factors are not a problem, a pay gap based on gender is. You can't deny it is exists because it is measurable and quantifiable, not that it stops people of course.

Why can men be more independent and take more risks?

Earn more, save more, can be more adventurous. Move city, start a business, take a risk etc. are all easier if you have more funds or greater earning power to fall back on.

[Wolfshade]

Earn more, save more, can be more adventurous. Move city, start a business, take a risk etc. are all easier if you have more funds or greater earning power to fall back on.

Oh I see, sorry I didn't get that from your post.

Surely, ones willingness to take a risk is unrelated to their earnings. If I was highly risk adverse I am so if I am earning minimum wage or getting a 5 figure bonus?

[eldargal]

omen who had just received their degree were more consistently at the lower end of the salary range, taking home pay of between £15-17,999 and £21-23,999.

Men by contrast were more likely to earn salaries of £24,000 or more. Women studying law – the worst affected degree subject – can anticipate starting on £20,000 a year whereas men graduating in the same discipline command an annual salary of £28,000.

The gap remained stubbornly high even when graduates had studied the same subject, achieved an identical Ucas score or attended the same institution, according to the study by the Warwick Institute for Employment Research on behalf of the Higher Education Careers Services Unit (Hecsu).

It found the problem was replicated across nearly all chosen career paths except the not-for-profit sector.

[URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/graduate-pay-gap-same-degrees-same-jobs-but-for-women-still-not-the-same-pay-8523471.html"]From the UK this time. Same jobs, same qualifications, same age, same experience, men get paid more.[/URL]

Oh I see, sorry I didn't get that from your post.

Surely, ones willingness to take a risk is unrelated to their earnings. If I was highly risk adverse I am so if I am earning minimum wage or getting a 5 figure bonus?

It can be unrelated, someone who is risk averse won't take risks (or as many risks) as someone who is more adventurous. But having greater earning capacity and ability to save makes it easier to take those risks if you want to, it's one of those flow on effect of th pay gap, not necessarily something that will impact everyone but it is a factor. The point being it isn't just as simple as 'oh women get paid less, how mean' it continues to have an impact all through life and in different areas.