A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

NOW I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU SAID.

Damn you Deadlift, you know I love knowledge

[Nabterayl]

I feel like the "alpha wolf" conversation had a lot of talking-past going on, but in the interests of letting it drop ...

[URL="http://www.upworthy.com/theres-something-absolutely-wrong-with-what-we-do-to-boys-before-they-grow-into-men?c=fea"]There's Something Absolutely Wrong With What We Do To Boys Before They Grow Into Men[/URL]

Found this on Upworthy. It's about the "be a man" crap we put boys through, and why it's harmful. We need to stop telling our boys to be "real men," stop telling our girls to be "real women," and just tell them all to be "real humans."

I ... sort of agree with what this trailer seems to be saying. I do agree that masculinity can be constructed in a harmful way, and even though I feel like I was spared that myself, enough people seem to think it's a real problem that I'm willing to agree.

On the other hand, I disagree that there is anything inherently harmful in telling somebody to "be a man," or "be a woman." I don't know if women are ever actually told to "be a woman," but "be a man" has a powerful psychosocial resonance that "be a human" does not. I don't know if the filmmakers think the message that phrase carries is inherently harmful, but if they do, I disagree. To me, "be a man" means to do what must be done, to act in spite of emotion, to use force, to render obstacles irrelevant (caveat - I don't mean to imply that these things are exclusively masculine - just because one phrase or concept implies A, B, and C does not mean that no other phrase or concept can imply A, B, or C). There's nothing wrong with that. There are times when those things should be spoken into our lives, by ourselves or others, and "be a man" is a forceful way to do so to a male from any of our cultures. The problem is when that is the only message that is spoken.

[eldargal]

EG, what DL is getting at is that you are now countering the alpha thing by placing a feminist view on the animal kingdom.
Can't we just let animals be animals?

No, I'm countering the male dominance theory imposed on animals and than transferred to humans, it is Deadlift who is getting it the wrong way around. Men declared the alpha male to tbe the supreme ruler of the animal world despite a dominant male only being present in a handful of species, it was male ethologists that started this crap, not feminists. Feminists are saying what you are saying, let animals be animals and don't project our gender biases on them.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm not sure you're getting it what he's saying, anyway, I'm impartial.

Toodlepip. Nice 12+ hour shift on a Sunday for Dale lad.

[Gotthammer]

To me, "be a man" means to do what must be done, to act in spite of emotion, to use force, to render obstacles irrelevant (caveat - I don't mean to imply that these things are exclusively masculine - just because one phrase or concept implies A, B, and C does not mean that no other phrase or concept can imply A, B, or C). There's nothing wrong with that. There are times when those things should be spoken into our lives, by ourselves or others, and "be a man" is a forceful way to do so to a male from any of our cultures. The problem is when that is the only message that is spoken.

The problem is if a man is acting due to emotion, doesn't want to use force, or are unable to overcome an obstacle they are, by definition not a man. So it's things like that that hurt men by telling them that to be a man, you can't feel, you have to fight and can't fail.
Also telling women and girls to man up hurts them as you are saying that being a man is strong, and better, and not being a man is a bad thing to be.

[eldargal]

Yup. Being manly is hitting things and being tough, the opposite of being manly is being womanly so when you tell someone to man up or grow a pair you're feeding the cultural belief that men are strong and violent and women are weak and passive. So you get generations of young men who think the only way they can show they are Men is by being violent. When women are told to 'act more like women' it usually means we should stop doing something usually reserved for men. Like being assertive and not acting like ****ing doormats.

[Wildeybeast]

Out of curiosity, who tell women to man up? I've never heard that phrase used towards women. Is it common?

Also, is the usage of gender here really the issue? Is telling someone to 'toughen up' or 'pull themselves together' not also implying that they are being weak and therefore doing something wrong? I find such terms deeply unhelpful and potentially damaging, without any reference to gender.

[eldargal]

I wouldn't say common, not rare though. You see it more on television (american television mostly) and film than people actually doing it but it still happens.

The difference between telling someone to toughen up is that it isn't gendered. When you tell someone to man up you are implying that not-men (ie women) are inherently weaker, so in order to get the person you are talking to to toughen up you are denigrating half the species which has traditionally been considered less tough and that has been used as an excuse for male domination. Of course telling someone to toughen up is usually problematic anyway, depending on the circumstances as it usually involves dismissing or downplaying someones feelings about something.

[Houghten]

I had always assumed that "man up" implied that the subject is still a "boy."

Of course, my version of things basically leaves women out of the possibility of existence, so it's probably even worse.

[Wildeybeast]

I wouldn't say common, not rare though. You see it more on television (american television mostly) and film than people actually doing it but it still happens.

The difference between telling someone to toughen up is that it isn't gendered. When you tell someone to man up you are implying that not-men (ie women) are inherently weaker, so in order to get the person you are talking to to toughen up you are denigrating half the species which has traditionally been considered less tough and that has been used as an excuse for male domination. Of course telling someone to toughen up is usually problematic anyway, depending on the circumstances as it usually involves dismissing or downplaying someones feelings about something.

Yeah, that's my point. I get the gender point and it is correct, but I think by focusing on the gender issues of such phrases we are ignoring the wider issues of general phrases. This a big issue than purely an equality one.