A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Who on this green Earth are the "Patriarchy"? This secret organisation that apparently exists...

And surely if this fictional entity existed then women would not have any rights and would basically be slaves.

[Wolfshade]

As a slight aside:

There is a problem associated with reporting on abstract ideas, regardless of what is being collected. While economic data is what it is, things like ranking how you feel is more difficult.
The way in which the question is asked may cause a bias itself.

"Q. Have you felt threatened in the last month?"

This is a powerful question and can prompt many different responses in the respondant. One of which is perhaps I should have felt threatened and that is why I am being asked, or the recalling of a situation in which one should feel threatened and recall that regardless of whether or not it was actually felt. This is meant in no-way to discount that there will those who did actually feel threatened. Unfortunatley it is very difficult to ascertain exactly what is what, then there is the issue of false memories and such.

Then there is a cultural problem. Men are considered to be culturally big, strong and to large extents emotionally unaware. That is how they are raised, consider for an instance how many childrens films/books/media have males rescuing females. So men are taught from an early age that they should grow up without feeling threatened and may not be aware of that emotion in themselves or if they are will not report because it is not what is expected.

There are always issues with self reporting which are inexcapable, but if one person no matter where they fall on the gender spectrum feels threatened then that is one person too many.

I think Feminism, isn't about saying "hey look these are women only issues" but hey look these issues happen across the gender divide, but where it may have a low priority on the male agenda it isn't on the female, or moreover it happens to us all, but to us more so.

I think that part of the issue is with this thread is that most of the men who post here do believe in equality themselves and think that that should be the state of play, whereas, it isn't, but should be. So, it is like preaching to the congregation about people not coming to church, it is perhaps reaching the wrong audience..

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think that part of the issue is with this thread is that most of the men who post here do believe in equality themselves and think that that should be the state of play, whereas, it isn't, but should be. So, it is like preaching to the congregation about people not coming to church, it is perhaps reaching the wrong audience..

SO MUCH THIS.

It's not even funny.

[Kirsten]

SO MUCH THIS.

It's not even funny.

you have no idea how 'not funny' it is

[Mr Mystery]

Who on this green Earth are the "Patriarchy"? This secret organisation that apparently exists...

And surely if this fictional entity existed then women would not have any rights and would basically be slaves.

And again you're being deliberately obtuse.

Patriarchy - The notion that men should naturally assume the top position in society.

And it's far from fictional. Massive leaps forward in equality have been achieved. It's not that long since women gained the vote. 96 years since any woman over the age of 30, and who met minimum property standards. 86 years since it was extended to all women over 21.

The glass ceiling is sadly still very much real. Otherwise Birmingham City Council wouldn't have just been successfully, and quite horribly, sued for inequality in pay.

It is documented, whether you like it or not.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ooooh, spooky ghost.

[Kirsten]

I think that part of the issue is with this thread is that most of the men who post here do believe in equality themselves and think that that should be the state of play, whereas, it isn't, but should be. So, it is like preaching to the congregation about people not coming to church, it is perhaps reaching the wrong audience..

the problem however is that whilst everybody here considers themselves in favour of equality, TDA is perfectly demonstrating the fact that word and deed does not necessarily match thought. Much as I said previously in the thread, everyone here thinks rape is bad, but we are not here trying to tell you rape is bad, that would be preaching to the congregation. we are trying to explain why society is such that rape still happens anyway. It is the small things done by everyday people that need to be changed that will stop the big things. TDA considers himself in favour of equality, yet is dismissive of what he is being told. saying 'people where I work get paid according to skill and not gender' dismisses the overwhelming evidence that that is exceedingly rare.

[Wolfshade]

It occurs all over the place,
Consider when we sit down for a family meal, my Dad always sits at the head of the table.
When my parents got married and had children, it was my mom who gave up her job, despite at the time being better paid than my Dad to raise us. It wasn't even a question of who would do it.
When in the garage most times the mechanics will talk to me rather than my wife about the issue, even where she is the registered keeper of the vehicle.
Buying dinner, the number of times the bill is put in front of me rather than either in a neutral position or infront of my wife.
etc.

[Nabterayl]

Who on this green Earth are the "Patriarchy"? This secret organisation that apparently exists...

Patriarchy isn't claimed to be an organization. The claim isn't that there's some sort of men's Illuminati dedicated to keeping men in power. "Patriarchy" is just the name academics give to the aggregate of all social constructs that associate maleness with power.

As for why feminism is called feminism ... because it was articulated by women, about women's social position (!= rights). As an idea, it's since evolved, but the name has not. One of the central theses of these two threads has been, if you want to look at it this way, that the name is obsolete. But it's still the name we're stuck with. Academic names tend to stick even if they become, on their face, obsolete. We don't rename modernism simply because the "modern" era ended almost fifty years ago.

[eldargal]

the problem however is that whilst everybody here considers themselves in favour of equality, TDA is perfectly demonstrating the fact that word and deed does not necessarily match thought. Much as I said previously in the thread, everyone here thinks rape is bad, but we are not here trying to tell you rape is bad, that would be preaching to the congregation. we are trying to explain why society is such that rape still happens anyway. It is the small things done by everyday people that need to be changed that will stop the big things. TDA considers himself in favour of equality, yet is dismissive of what he is being told. saying 'people where I work get paid according to skill and not gender' dismisses the overwhelming evidence that that is exceedingly rare.

^This.

Now TDA, you aren't a bad person and you aren't misogynist but what you are doing now is getting defensive because you are being confronted with your privilege and no one likes that. But you know what? It happens to me too. I follow a lot of feminist feeds on tumblr and some of them are primarily aimed at women of colour in the US and they speak quite scathingly of 'white feminists' like myself and often my first impulse is to try and defend white feminism. But I stop myself because for these women the way white feminists treat them is a problem, just because I don't see it and don't want to believe it doesn't mean it isn't so. Ditto when feminist sex workers write scathing articles about how mainstream, bourgeois feminism marginalises and ignores their concerns. It is confronting and unpleasant but it is an important step in personal growth so long as one keeps and open mind and tries to work through it.