A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Morgrim]

Whilst I'm in full support of anti-anti-abortion legislation, that does seem like a it of an extreme interpretation. Is that ever likely to happen? After all, that would involve the rapist having to explain how he got her pregnant in the first place

Unfortunately yes, given how long it takes to actually prosecute someone for rape and that fact most rapes aren't by strangers. It'll be mostly the victims of domestic abuse (and potentially paedophilia, but that is much less likely) that will get caught by such a law.

[eldargal]

[eldargal]

Feminism:

Hehe.

[Gotthammer]

Heh

Related:

[eldargal]

Flight of the Conchords, such a succinct satire of patriarchy.

[Gotthammer]

Yup, as the caption said:

Isn’t it humbling to write hundreds and hundreds of words about sexism and gender and entitlement and then remember that “Flight of the Conchords” nailed the whole displacement-of-responsibility and nice-guy rage things in, like, four sentences?

[Vulgotha]

With respect, I am not entirely certain that Feminism really deserves the kind of attention and reverence it presently enjoys in western society anymore. Or, at least, in the US (where I reside).

It has been successful, in fact very much so. The problem is I fear we are leaving men behind and that many of the issues that are slowly cropping up in my country are a result of this.

I think "feminism" should be reformulated into something that is more neutral, in that it supports the growth and equality of both genders and is honest about it.

At the moment I feel, rather strongly, that the movement has devolved into little more than perpetuating victimhood in order to garner power. I am not saying that all feminists are like this, but the majority of the ones I've had personal interactions with are (to varying degrees). They view that women are still absolutely oppressed and become condescending if you suggest that men are actually in trouble.

I'd be very willing to have an open discussion about this point, and the reason I have posted this is because I see this kind of thread (on a tabletop gaming forum of all things) but you never see any kind of threads or public exposure to issues concerning men. We have convinced ourselves that they, we, have always had it wonderful while women were also under foot.. But historically, nothing could be farther from the truth.

The reality is we have both suffered due to the need to survive. But this is not the story that is being told.

[eldargal]

Feminism helps men, though if you do want to do something about the problems men face (which are almost entirely due to patriarch backfiring) it would be great to see a Mens Rights group that actually, you know, does something about mens rights instead of attacking women.

Feminism isn't revered though, it's derided and misrepresented by the media and ignored quite a bit by most people with any power in society. We are far, far from having a position where feminism needs to be reformulated to be more equal but intersectional feminism is all about making sure EVERYONE who is disadvantaged gets raised up with it.

One thing though:

We have convinced ourselves that they, we, have always had it wonderful while women were also under foot.. But historically, nothing could be farther from the truth.

That isn't what anyone is saying. Men have certainly never always had it wonderful. What they have had, though, is power, agency and more freedom than women in a similar position (socio-economic or whatever) than women.

[Gotthammer]

At the moment I feel, rather strongly, that the movement has devolved into little more than perpetuating victimhood in order to garner power. I am not saying that all feminists are like this, but the majority of the ones I've had personal interactions with are (to varying degrees). They view that women are still absolutely oppressed and become condescending if you suggest that men are actually in trouble.

... but you never see any kind of threads or public exposure to issues concerning men. We have convinced ourselves that they, we, have always had it wonderful while women were also under foot.. But historically, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Ok, the reason you get condescension is that second paragraph there coupled with this:

With respect, I am not entirely certain that Feminism really deserves the kind of attention and reverence it presently enjoys in western society anymore. Or, at least, in the US (where I reside).

It really comes off as saying "stop talking about your problems, talk about my problems" when really what men's rights supporters (as opposed to MRAs) should be doing is looking at how feminism has enacted positive changes for women (and men!) and learn from it. Men do have legitimate issues, lopsided custody, the pressure to be the breadwinning stoic father figure is not for everyone and all that - but that doesn't make the aims of feminism less valid, it means there are two groups of problems, often intersecting with each other (boo to rigid gender roles!).

"Men's rights" groups get a big dose of side eye because all to often they don't focus on men's issues but on attacking women for trying to make their lot better. It may seem like men lose out in some cases, but as an excellent quote said "you don't give lightning or blue shells to the leader in Mario Kart, you give it to the guys coming last to catch up and have the same chance". Now when you're in the lead and a blue shell hits you it seems unfair, but when it's not a race but building a society it's just trying to level things so nobody gets left behind and enjoys things equally.

So really, rather than coming in here and saying "feminism doesn't deserve attention, I have man-problems" why not say "hey feminists, help a brother out as we have the same goals here here and here, and while I don't directly benefit from X, I'll support you and then you can support me with man-only problem Y!" That way everybody wins

[eldargal]

+1

Feminism has actually benefited men in a lot of demosntrable ways, from launching campaigns to raise awareness of and put an end to rape in prisons, campaigning for better paternity leave so the burden doesn't fall solely on women to many other different initiatives. But the systemic problems facing women are vast and it IS oppression. You can't even argue it isn't violent when rape, domestic violence and other statistics are examined. You know murder is still in the top ten causes of death for women in the US and for black women it is number one. For men it isn't even on the list. For pregnant women it is the third most common cause of death.

To all those who don’t think the rape joke was a problem, or rape jokes are a problem.
I get it, you’re a decent guy. I can even believe it. You’ve never raped anybody. You would NEVER rape anybody. You’re upset that all these feminists are trying to accuse you of doing something or connect you to doing something that, as far as you’re concerned, you’ve never done and would never condone.

And they’ve told you about triggers, and PTSD, and how one in six women is a survivor, and you get it. You do. But you can’t let every time someone gets all upset get in the way of you having a good time, right?

So fine. If all those arguments aren’t going anything for you, let me tell you this. And I tell you this because I genuinely believe you mean it when you say you don’t want to hurt anybody, and you don’t see the harm, and that it’s important to you to do your best to be a decent and good person. And I genuinely believe you when you say you would never associate with a rapist and you think rape really is a very bad thing.

Because this is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down-

6% of college age men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used in the description of the act.

6% of Penny Arcade’s target demographic will admit to actually being rapists when asked.

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.

They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

If one in twenty guys is a real and true rapist, and you have any amount of social activity with other guys like yourself, really cool guy, then it is almost a statistical certainty that one time hanging out with friends and their friends, playing Halo with a bunch of guys online, in a WoW guild, or elsewhere, you were talking to a rapist. Not your fault. You can’t tell a rapist apart any better than anyone else can. It’s not like they announce themselves.

But, here’s the thing. It’s very likely that in some of these interactions with these guys, at some point or another someone told a rape joke. You, decent guy that you are, understood that they didn’t mean it, and it was just a joke. And so you laughed.

And, decent guy who would never condone rape, who would step in and stop rape if he saw it, who understands that rape is awful and wrong and bad, when you laughed?

That rapist who was in the group with you, that rapist thought that you were on his side. That rapist knew that you were a rapist like him. And he felt validated, and he felt he was among his comrades.

You. The rapist’s comrade.

And if that doesn’t make you feel sick to your stomach, if that doesn’t make you want to throw up, if that doesn’t disturb you or bother you or make you feel like maybe you should at least consider not participating in that kind of humor anymore…

Well, maybe you aren’t as opposed to rapists as you claim.

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