A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Why should only Eldar be male/female mixed? Surely once you open up that, then each other army must follow?

Also the earlier point about mixed gender Tyranids is stupid. Tyranids reproduce asexually via cloning, and thus have no sexual dimorphism. You're free to imagine the entire horde is female as a result, it's not like GW modelled a penis on every Hormagaunt so that you couldn't.

The Mechanicus have so little flesh left that you can't even tell if they're human anymore. Sexual dimorphism is again meaningless here. I'm all for mixed gender options, but it doesn't help your argument when you throw in such badly thought-out demands as well.

[Morgrim]

Orks are asexual which is fine, they have a genuinely interesting method of reproduction, but it'd be nice if the authors hadn't decided that this makes them all male by default. Unfortunately I think it's too late to change that.

Ditto on the Space Marines, if only because well over 50% of the fluff is about them and their fluff is fare more detailed than everyone else's and underpins the entire setting. We're stuck in a situation where all that can really be done is put more female supporting characters in their fluff. And possibly a note somewhere about how the genemods were tried in women and didn't work? I'm really undecided on that one, it could well make things worse having a biological instead of purely cultural reason.

No excuses on the Guard. Hell, GW could make a killing by shoving an all female amazonian guard detachment into the next codex and selling an upgrade kit of appropriate bits to convert the base cadian models into them. The fluff repeatedly says how the Imperium takes in a wide range of planets, there have GOT to be some more matriarchal ones in there too. If GW decides that they don't feel the need to do a whole new box set of basic guards then at least having the upgrade kits available means that people can still scatter the bits throughout their units as they please. I don't understand why they haven't done this, actually. It is guaranteed to pay for itself. Just look at how well the TTG Kickstarter went purely because they were the only company so far to provide full ranges of female human models that could slot into that role.

[eldargal]

Perhaps GW don't feel that the development costs of a new line of femme Guardsmen et al is worth the financial and developmental

This is exactly the attiude I'm talking about though. The idea that women are somehow an extra, not integral. They are producing new kits regardless, all they have to do is make some of the sculpts women. It costs literally nothing more to do so long as the intent is there at the beginning. Same with the art and characters in the stories, it is all being produced anyway it is just a matter of shifting the focus from almost exclusively male to something more representative.

Oh and it is quite possible to have an army of female soldiers without them being sexualised. The idea that we have to choose between no women and only sexualised women which will make the feminists cranky is a completely false dichotomy.

The Mechanicus have so little flesh left that you can't even tell if they're human anymore. Sexual dimorphism is again meaningless here. I'm all for mixed gender options, but it doesn't help your argument when you throw in such badly thought-out demands as well.

Now you're just being silly. You're actually just creating a strawman argument which is not representative of anything people are actually asking for.

[CoffeeGrunt]

YorkNecromancer brought up the AdMech. Please thoroughly read the posts in the thread before posting, EldarGal.

"It costs literally nothing more to do so long as the intent is there at the beginning."

It does not. Please also research the 3D design, prototyping and casting process that GW utilise. Even at the basic 3D modelling phase, preceded by the concept art phase, it takes a lot of time and money to create a miniature.

You're also hand waving my argument on sexual dimorphism. GW have to tread the very fine line between making designs that are recognizably female, and making them not overtly sexualised to do so. Given that these girls would likely be thrown into the typical Conscript meat grinder blob, GW may not even see horde armies as needing the extra details in their Troops. None of the basic horde units have had their designs updated in years.

There are lots of third party bitz dealers and manufacturers that cover this anyway, as YorkNecromancer has proven with their excellent army work, the ability is there to create excellently femme Guard forces. Would anyone even buy a GW upgrade sprue given that this market segment is already filled, and if so, would it be profitable?

Do most girls even want to play with solely female forces? That's like assuming all men want to play with solely male forces, despite Sisters being popular to the contrary of this belief.

[eldargal]

Yes, he brought up AdMech, your point is still false.

And you still miss the point. GW produce models. These models are being made regardless, it costs no more to make some of them female than to have all of them male. It is a choice. Say in 2015 GW decide to update the plastic Cadians. It will cost them a certain amount to produce to cover wage for a sculptor, mould tooling etc. The impact of having the sculptor make some female torsos and heads adds zero to the cost because those parts were being made anyway, the onyl difference is some of the parts represent women now.

I'm not handwaving it, I'm dismissing it because it is irrelevant. Here is a female Cadian officer from the Space Marine game:

Recognisably Cadian uniform, no sexualisation, still clearly female. No harder to do in 28mm scale for an experienced, talented sculptor than to make a man. All basic units get upgraded eventually, the tactical squad most recently, Dark Eldar warriors before that.

Who said anything about an upgrade sprue? **** upgrade sprues I want them in the main plastic boxed set. That is where they belong.

In my experience the armies most popular with women are tyranids, orks and eldar. Women may not go out of there way to buy an IG army because of female Ig but what it will do is send the message that women are in the setting, valued as part of the setting and this will encourage more women to get into the hobby. I know maybe a dozen women who play and another dozen who would if they thought GW valued women as much as FFG do in their RPGs.

[Thor Summer]

The Tyranid argument is daft. Tyranids are made up of Bio-matter and can barely think beyond 'kill, eat, fart, puke plasma', unless the Hive Mind is involved, and we don't even know if that is a being as we understand it. Tyranids do not need to be sexually equal, they already are, just imagine it if you have to.

Orkz are also asexual, and I think default to the 'Boyz', 'Ladz' monikers and 'he' term to describe an Ork because Orkz are basically English Football Hooligans, but green and in space. They are also incredibly violent and not too intelligent 'Boyz', 'Ladz' etc. Conveys more of this that 'Gurlz' perhaps? I'm not even sure there was much thought going into it, Orkz are just fun and awesome.

Space Marine lore I'd prefer to remain as is as regards the Black Carapace etc. Nothing stopping people from making their own female marines, I'll just politely go on knowing that Space Marines are weird, neutered gene-freaks who used to be young boys.

The Guard and Eldar and Tau (and Necrons?) Are where I'd like to see more females. Especially Guard. But I'd not want to see the ever-present 'boob-armor', I think that's just as much a problem, Sisters can do it because, well, they're the Sisters and that's their thing now, but Guard should just have the same Flak Armor, it'd fit a female about the same. Just female heads for guard would be good, if they don't want to go all out and give us female proportioned bodies, too. Solves some of cost excuse too, ten more heads in the main box gives you options to make as many or as few Male or female Guardsmen as you want. I'd prefer female bodies, too, because I like helmeted soldiers, but that's just me. And can we have a Cadian female Officer character for the tabletop? Or at least a Kasrkin Sergent (like Bastonne, whom they had in the 5th Codex)? I'd love to hear about the exploits of her and her men and women. Seeing as Cadian military forces are practically 50/50 split, I'd like the game and models to reflect that more... Guard need new characters anyway, let's have a girl!

[Kirsten]

Why should only Eldar be male/female mixed? Surely once you open up that, then each other army must follow?

that was just an example, not an exhaustive list

[CoffeeGrunt]

"Yes, he brought up AdMech, your point is still false."

I've noticed you seem to wave away any information you don't like, without actually thinking it over. Ad Mech are stitched-together mechanical monstrosities, twisted fusions of the human and machine forms. How is gender even relevant anymore in such a creature? How can you introduce gender when the faction is so bent on filleting away every unnecessary piece of flesh that they can?

I quite liked Lt Mira, and she was a very well executed character in the game. Strong, able to command and tactically capable, she was still just a human next to the Astartes, though. Of course, being a cis white male I'm not allowed an opinion on such matters as has been previously established, but for what little my opinion is worth, she's a great character.

Adding extra torsos adds extra models to the unit, unless they limit the number of legs available. Given that you'd effectively have twice the parts, driving up the price for the end buyer on a horde unit that doesn't need additional detail. You can buy these replacement parts from 3rd parties if you want them, there's little to be gained from forcing them into the kits.

[Deadlift]

I think EG is saying when the current guard kit gets replaced (or any kit for that matter) then that would be the time to add some female body parts. Hench no extra cost as the new tooling and design costs would be a factor anyway. Well unless sculpted boobs cost more.

[Mr Mystery]

Thing is, as has been shown, all they really need to do are more lady like heads. IG armour is cheaply mass produced, so the chance of BOOBFLAK is minimal.

To quote Ankh Morpork's City Watch Armourers - One Size Fits No One!

And that to me is the main issue with the Cadian stuff. A slightly more elven face under the helmet or two, and you'd have ladyguard. Job jobbed. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

I don't think anyone is demanding existing kits be scrapped due to a lack of knockers on them. Instead they're hoping GW include next time around. And there will be a next time around. There always is.

Though they did mess up a wee bit with the new Dark Elf warriors. Previous kit had female torsos, new one doesn't. They did however get a new entirely ladyelf unit, which kind of balances. Plus, they're Elves and somewhat androgynous anyways.