A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[eldargal]

Criticism isn't the issue at all though, it is enitrely irrelevant. No one is saying these women are above criticism or disagreement, just that whatever faults they may or may not have are completely irrelevant to the issue of the harassment they receive. It doesn't matter if Zoe Quinn is an abuser (still no evidence of it, just people saying she is because her ex said she was), she doesn't deserve the harassment she is getting and whatever her behaviour may be that is an entirely separate conversation. Ditto with Anita Sarkeesian, it doesn't matter what the disagreements are because disagreements are a healthy part of academic discussion. she isn't claiming absolute truth, she is just examining misogyny in video games in a way which makes a lot of people deeply uncomfortable. Bringing up legitimate disagreements is again an entirely different conversation which is not part of this.

This being an orchestrated campaign of sexual harassment and abuse aimed at any woman who looks like she ie becoming prominent in the games industry. Their personal faults don't matter because this is not about what they do, it is about what they represent. Zoe Quinn got a lot of publicity over her indie game, showing that a woman could get stuff published, which threatened the traditional male controlled publishing so she has been viciously attacked ever since. Whether or not she abused her boyfriend is not relevant to that. Anita Sarkeesian also has become a symbol for feminism in gaming and so she under constant assault as well. As are many, many other women in the industry and many more don't take risks or accept promotions to positions where they might get their name out there for fear of inviting the same response.

[Psychosplodge]

I've already said I don't agree with the abuse.
No right thinking person does. The problem appears to be though that as soon as anyone criticisers either of these two they're shouted down.
Look at the abuse TB got following his first comment on the situation. Both "sides" are so entrenched no ones actually looking at the people actually asking sensible questions anymore.

Well it does and it doesn't. It normally wouldn't, but its like a politician that stands on family values and is then caught shagging his secretary, it questions their credibility.

[Gotthammer]

The problem is so much criticism of Sarkeesian is "I don't agree with some of what she said so she shouldn't speak at all" or "I demand she should be totally transparent with her money (like no other business/entertainer is really) because reasons" rather than actually discussing what she's saying. Also the fact that people say that on one hand while they agree with her general message but want her to stop as it's not perfect they then acknowledge on the other that there are no other women dealing with these very serious issues.

Also the whole Zoe Quinn thing is just all kinds of gross and seedy. I mean this part from Splodgey's link: "Zoe Quinn being slut shamed, having her game bombarded with troll reviews and 1/10 scores, getting doxxed, getting her private life more or less splashed all over the gaming and tech journalism district of the internet..." actually happened. Look at that response vs how male game developers who (aledgedly) lie, have public fights and fallings out with their production companies, collude with journalists (fun fact: gaming journalism is ranked by Reuters below tabloid magazines in terms of reliability and independence and influence by sponsors/the companies they are reporting on) and even have allegations of abusive behaviours levelled at them are treated. It doesn't begin to compare.

Never mind that what happened with people trolling her game and her being attacked started waaaay before any of the issues with her developers or anything to do with the completely foreign idea in gaming journalism of a gaming journalist reviewing games favourably due to nepotism or favouritism (I mean you'd have to shut down IGN if collusion was really that big a deal).

The common thread to all these people who have been attacked? They are all women.

I'm not saying that excuses any behaviours, but people really need to look at how they are responding and criticising these cases against how men who have done the same or worse are viewed.

[eldargal]

Because it's a really bad time to focus on something as minor as academic disagreements with Sarkeesian or a personal dislike of Zoe Quinn when both are suffering from an orchestrated campaign aimed at driving women out of the video gaming industry. Some of the abuse TB got I'm almost certain was from 4channers trying to give SJWs a bad name, they do that a lot and have also been recorded talking about that in IRC and whatnot, not in that specific instance. But a lot of the criticism of him was so ridiculous I doubt it was genuine.

Except it's not like that at all. No one is perfect, everyone has things they wouldn't want made public and by having these witch hunts against women it is implied that Zoe Quinn 9maybe) being a **** in her personal life somehow justifies abuse or Anita Sarkeesian using video and art without credit undermines what she says when it has no bearing on it at all. It's a sideshow to the real issue and it is a sideshow that is being used to justify the campaign agaisnt them.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Not to be that guy, but were it a prominent male game developer being found guilty of misogynistic abuse towards their girlfriend, I doubt you'd say it was irrelevant. I don't agree with abuse either in the relationship nor in the industry, but I just wanted to note that as an agreement with Psycho here.

[Gotthammer]

Well it does and it doesn't. It normally wouldn't, but its like a politician that stands on family values and is then caught shagging his secretary, it questions their credibility.

I'm not sure what either Quinn or Sarkeesian have done that is similarly hypocritical? Quinn wanted to release a game about depression, Sarkeesian make videos about her views on women in gaming.

[eldargal]

Also what Gott said.

We know the gaming media is extraordinarily corrupt, so why is it someone who supported Zoe hash ad to resign 9a woman too) vs the men who allegedly gave her good reviews in return for sex? What about the fact big companies offer gifts and inducements to gaming journalists all the time and while there is some grumbling about it there is never witch hunts to get rid of those who gave or accepted gifts?
It's just another tool being used to punish women for daring to enter an industry that a large group of men consider theirs.

- - - Updated - - -

Not to be that guy, but were it a prominent male game developer being found guilty of misogynistic abuse towards their girlfriend, I doubt you'd say it was irrelevant. I don't agree with abuse either in the relationship nor in the industry, but I just wanted to note that as an agreement with Psycho here.

Completely different situation though. an abusive male still has more power in the industry. If he loses his job, and that is a big if, he will probably get another one. When a this situation happens with a woman, her career is over. Not saying that makes her alleged abuse any less vile, but the situation is still not equal. Plus she hasn't been found guilty, it is all alleged and all the supposed evidence comes from her ex who has also been shown colluding with 4chan.

Not to mention the man would never suffer under a sustained attack simply because of his gender the way these women are. Hell all these same people attacking Sarkeesian and Quinn would be defending him against the evil feminist plot to take him down, that has also happened before.

These people are using real or perceived personal faults in this women to make their vile campaign of abuse more acceptable in the eyes of other men who aren't really connected to the issue. That's why continuing to focus on those issues in the same conversation about the campaign of abuse is problematic.

[Psychosplodge]

I'll agree her being abusive or not is a "sideshow" in a manner of speaking to this particular debate. The nepotism within the industry certainly isn't though.
And a female youtuber(young asian girl, but not someone I follwed so can't remember her name) withdrew from social media following the abuse she got for a spoof of the tropes video.

Various youtubers have been speaking out against the corruption among developers and publishers and journalists for at least twelve months. I know I've seen videos that mention it before.

[eldargal]

Oh it's talked about, it just isn't used as ammunition to destroy peoples careers unless they are women. And the examples used are incredibly minor compared to the significant monetary value of the gifts and bribes that slosh about.

also remember that with Quinn the timeline went something like this:
Quinn announces Depression Quest game
Various media outlets talk about it, boosting its profile (The Mary Sue for one)
Quinn starts being harassed and serious attempts are made to kill the games chances of getting greenlit on Steam
Many months later game is released
There is a concerted effort to dirve the aggregate reviews of the game down
Some time later accusations that she slept with people for positive reviews emerge
Ex- makes accusations of abuse.

The campaign against her started LONG before there was any hint of personal issues with her, the people waging this campaign don't care, they are just using it as ammunition.

[Gotthammer]

Not to be that guy, but were it a prominent male game developer being found guilty of misogynistic abuse towards their girlfriend, I doubt you'd say it was irrelevant. I don't agree with abuse either in the relationship nor in the industry, but I just wanted to note that as an agreement with Psycho here.

[URL="http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/22/5926193/women-gaming-harassment"]Link 1[/URL]

[URL="http://www.businessinsider.com.au/women-programmers-stories-of-harassment-2013-3"]Link 2[/URL]

[URL="http://www.lazygamer.net/general-news/outrage-but-not-surprise-at-sexual-harassment/"]Link 3[/URL]

[URL="http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012"]Link 4[/URL]

[URL="http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting"]Link 5[/URL]

When Quinn's ex told his side of the story (note that the allegations of her being abusive come from the same thing he posted saying she slept with game journalists for review so side-eyeing that) it blew up into #[URL="http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/07/the-gamergate-question/"]gamergate[/URL]. Which was [URL="https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate"]orchestrated by the usual suspects[/URL].

Oh and Josh Mattingly, the reporter who very much harassed a developer and "stepped down"..? Back at his old job like nothing happened.