A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[daboarder]

Men struggle to write women characters that exist in our world well, largley because men struggle to actually understand women because they pumped full of bull**** about how women are hard to understand and emotional so they don't ****ing bother. Now here you have a guy who is going to have to write a woman who has no experience of patriarchy, no concept of gender roles, no idea how a patriarchal society expects women to behave etc. Now women today can only imagine what that is like, expecting a man to get it write is a huge ask. I can think of less than half a dozen male writers I would trust to do it well, another half dozen who would at least genuinely try.

This guy is a mediocre writer. I do not hold much hope he is up to the task. The one glimmer of hope is that he is apparently writing it with the director Michelle MacLaren so hopefully she can keep him on track.

Edit: Apparently she isn't just working with him on the drafts, she is overseeing him. Hehe.

Yup sure, whatever misguided and disturbingly hypocritical beliefs help you justify your bigotry.

I mean this crap you spout isn't just insulting its also kinda dismisses of one of the biggest arguments about gender roles, that they hurt both genders.

But **** males right?

actually its really sad to re-read the initial post in this thread and see just how sickening its become, what happened to this

Women should have the same political rights and responsibilities as a man.
Women should have the same social and legal rights and freedoms a man enjoys.
Women should be paid the same for doing the same work as a man.
Women should not be subjected to discrimination or abuse simply because they are women.
Women should not be barred from doing something a man can do based solely on their gender*.

(which hey, I agree with wholeheartedly, YAY equality!)

And this part

Feminism is not a man-hating ideology based around putting women ahead of men

There is an extremist feminist element that do believe in such things, and they are the single most damaging thing to women's rights there is. Equality can not be replaced as a goal by revenge.

what happened to this?

[Gotthammer]

You can't achieve equality without attacking & dismantling the systems that actively try to keep women down. One part of this system is that women in media are under-represented, and when they are represented male writers oft do a terrible job of it. So saying that one of the most iconic female characters in pop culture should be written by a woman as they are far more likely to do a good job of representing her viewpoint is attacking the system that says "we're all equal! Men can write women if women can write men!!".

It's attacking that system because it's not true.

I mean even Joss "so feminist he fired charisma carpenter when she fell pregnant" Whedon's work is littered with: rape as a plot device, stalking/not taking no for an answer as romantic, simultaneous idealisation & fetishization of prostitution, sexually active women being verbally demeaned / punished, sexualisation of violence against women etc etc.

So yes, to achieve equality it does require saying that no, this is not ok & we won't accept it any more, and we will tell you that what you are doing is terrible.


Two quotes:

Anger towards privileged groups is a result of years of oppression and hatred.

Anger towards the oppressed is supported by years of oppression and hatred.

That’s why hatred towards privileged groups is not the same as hatred towards minorities

Feminism is not sexy or friendly.
...

People are asking me to elaborate so I will. Feminism isn’t about playing nice or being appealing. It’s about destroying an oppressive and violent system. It’s more than wearing red lipstick and winged eyeliner. It’s a dangerous fight and it’s a fight I’m tired of seeing be trivialized by men who say it’s “sexy” or patronized by men who say it’s “not welcoming enough for them.”

[daboarder]

You can't achieve equality without attacking & dismantling the systems that actively try to keep women down. One part of this system is that women in media are under-represented

Yeah so no problem with the WW movie as a thing....Or it offering a good portrayal of women in the media

and when they are represented male writers oft do a terrible job of it.

So do a ****load of female writers but mentioning that wouldn't justify male hate so we don't

So saying that one of the most iconic female characters in pop culture should be written by a woman as they are far more likely to do a good job of representing her viewpoint

Cool so all those female writers who write about men (heres looking at you JK rolling) should be protested against, because they are far less likely to do a good job.


Honestly how can you not see the hypocricy in these statements.....its sad, so sad and damaging to the goal of achieving equality in society. but again

**** males!


EDIT: I;m eagerly awaiting the post that states.

There are good books written by female writers about men so the bad ones dont count

HAHA can I use that statement too? Of course not, because its DIFFERENT the other way around, somehow, maybe or not....

Or

Men cant understand negative gender effects because they dont suffer any

HAHA because **** any statistics that would suggest there are...and who cares about the fact that's kinda one of the biggest arguments for gender equality, so that men can feel they have to be less hyper macho.....

Or the ever popular

Your a man on the internet **** your opinion

YEAH that'll learn em, wait what was that in the first post again?

[daboarder]

seriously.

If I made a post that expressed dissapointment about a women writing the script for batman (I wouldn't because my whole point is that the quality matters (previous work included) not gender) I'd be justifiably shouted down.

But so many of you are trying to justify dissapointment against a writer for no other reason than he is a man....its just so sad and pathetic


Here's another hypothetical.
Say its a good movie that offers a wonderful portrayal of female super heroes.....(and lets ignore the fact that the people here would just give all credit to the women involved only)

Next time a man is given script writing duties for a movie about a female character can I tell people to shut up when people ***** about it?

[Gotthammer]

Cool so all those female writers who write about men (heres looking at you JK rolling) should be protested against, because they are far less likely to do a good job.

...

EDIT: I;m eagerly awaiting the post that states.

There are good books written by female writers about men so the bad ones dont count

HAHA can I use that statement too? Of course not, because its DIFFERENT the other way around, somehow, maybe or not....

Well it is different. [URL="http://melissaferguson.squarespace.com/storage/everyday_sexism.pdf"]Here's a study on everyday sexism[/URL] with both male and female participants. Sexualisation of women, especially violence against women in media, has shown to be a factor in violence against women in reality. Women and girls are far more at risk of depression, eating disorders and self harm due to body image.
The media's portrayal of women is overall sexist. Like, you can't rationally argue against that. And it's overwhelmingly created by men. Also you are free to list/link examples where where a media type features:

"rape as a plot device, stalking/not taking no for an answer as romantic, simultaneous idealisation & fetishization of prostitution, sexually active men being verbally demeaned / punished, sexualisation of violence against men" (all things included in a male ~feminist~ writer's work acclaimed as being ~feminist~)

as the standard and is written by a majority of women. Because for your argument that things are the same you would need to provide a situation where men are constantly demeaned, violated and used as plot devices across the majority of all media. Also only have 33% of the cast or less as male. Because a recent study found that if there's a group and it's 17 percent women, the men in the group think it's 50-50. And if there's 33 percent women, the men perceive that as there being more women in the room than men. Coincidentally crowd shots in movies only have 33% of the population be female - perhaps to do with the male dominated film industry?

Also:



So if you think the problems men suffer anywhere near what women do because of the system they perpetuate, I just don't know what to say.

Men cant understand negative gender effects because they dont suffer any

HAHA because **** any statistics that would suggest there are...and who cares about the fact that's kinda one of the biggest arguments for gender equality, so that men can feel they have to be less hyper macho.....

And now you're really reaching. This is a topic about feminism - issues that affect women. There is a crossover with things that effect men (as there is with LGBTA issues, race and class issues as well), but if you need the bringing down of something that women are saying is harmful to them to benefit you before you care, I question your values.
I mean we're saying things like "the representation of women in media, as done by men, is appalling and the industry (also run by men) shuts out and harasses women who try to enter it, so that they're having a man write a female icon is galling" and all you can talk about is how it effects men, or that we should be talking about men's issues?

Also rather than a hilariously pathetic strawman argument, please feel free to find an instance where I have actually said men do not suffer negative gender effects. If you'd like I'll be happy to find the posts where I have in fact commented about how things women are doing to dismantle the system that leads to harassment, violence and death helps men. Why do I do that? Because as shown many men here only care for feminism so long as it panders to them, helps them as well and does not inconvenience them or force them to critically analyse their own behaviour.

wait what was that in the first post again?

Talking about women and women's issues.


Also:

[daboarder]

you'll have to point out where I have EVER stated that women do not suffer sexism or that society suffers by continuing gender discrimination. Because continually stating that is hardly relevant to my point

all I have ever wanted is people to be less hypocritical, not that big a thing

I mean seriously how is the dudes GENDER any reason to judge him, answer that without violating the first post on this thread asking for the SAME GOD DAMNED RIGHTS

You decry people who judge people based on gender and then turn around and justify judging others based on THEIR gender. And you're blind to the stupidity of this....

[daboarder]

Heres a better way of stating My point perhaps.


By NOT judging a person on their gender you actually do your part in moving the world towards greater equality for all.

in other words. Practicing the cause you preach does far more to support it.

[eldargal]

Quoting for relevance.

Also remember that women are raised to empathise and understand men, while the reverse is not true. Women tend to do a better job writing male characters than the reverse because we are conditioned to look up to, empathise with and understand men with the tacit assumption it will help us better cater to their needs. The reverse is not true. How many fictional characters male and female have a wise male mentor who guides them and sets them on their path to greatness? Many. How many have a female character who fulfills that role? Very few. How many MALE characters have a FEMALE mentor? Even fewer (how many of those few female mentors end up being killed to create Mainpain? Most).

Male characters are something that are held up to be universal. They don't depict a single facet of our species but represent universality. Women in contrast are considered niche. We are (according to men) irrational, erratic, impossible to understand, emotional, illogical, frivolous, uninteresting etc. We can't be universal because men have trouble relating to us or even viewing us as humans. How often do you see people say they don't play video games or read books featuring female protagonists because they can't relate to women? All the ****ing time. Women aren't considered by men to be individuals, we are archetypes. Mother, Virgin, Whore, Crone, *****.

We live in a culture which tells men they are sissy if they look up to women. We live in a culture which tells men that women are hard to understand. We tell men its sissy and futile to even TRY to understand women. So we get men who are raised without any understanding of what women experience and then we get slack jawed feckwits mewling about how its reverse sexist to ask that prominent female characters be written by women. It's pathetic.

Men, the vast majority of men, do not understand women. Because they are never expected to. This isn't reprehensible on their part, it is cultural. But trying to pretend this doesn't happen just helps perpetuate it.

As Gott has said even 'famous feminist' men like joss Whedon are actually extremely average when it comes to providing good female characters. Buffy is brilliant but it is still deeply problematic on many levels. Ditto Firefly etc. He gets praised, rightly to a point, for Black Widow in Avengers but he still managed to get a character to call her a whiny ****, albeit in fancier language.

Some men can write women very well, thoughtful, intelligent men who are willing to examine their own biases and above all else PRACTISE and take criticism and advice from women. Greg Rucka wrote some of the best Wonder Woman stories ever, for example. Fuchs is considered an up and coming writer but he is largely unproven. Not only are there more qualified male writers for this job there are many, many more qualifies female writers who would have been better. This isn't 'sexist', just stating a ****ing fact.

[Gotthammer]

I've never said you've said that, merely questioned how some of your statements reflect upon your attitudes (perhaps with a hint of maybe some self-reflection might not hurt).

As to how his gender effects his skills as a writer (this may be a bit long and rambling):

Simply put I don't believe in feminism as sitting 'round the campfire singing the "we're all equal song". I see it as, to use the older term, the women's liberation movement. It's about dismantling the harmful elements of society that keep women oppressed - smash the patriarchy and all that - liberating women from the mechanisms of society that hurt us. To take EG's opening comment:

Women should have the same political rights and responsibilities as a man.
Women should have the same social and legal rights and freedoms a man enjoys.
Women should be paid the same for doing the same work as a man.
Women should not be subjected to discrimination or abuse simply because they are women.
Women should not be barred from doing something a man can do based solely on their gender

I agree with this. But I don't think simply deciding one day to go "well we're just going to have to stop judging people by gender" is a good thing. Or rather that it would be good if people actually did that, but they haven't and they won't. And judging (in a neutral sense - appraising, evaluating) people by their race, gender, sexuality, income level is important. Very important in fact. For example you as a white cis man (as far as I know about you!) have many advantages I do not in that regard. But if I were to ignore our relative income levels I wouldn't get the full picture. I know you're not mega rich, or at least haven't always been, as you've brought up something to do with your experiences with finding government housing before.

Now, were I to take that situation and apply the "we're all equal!" paint to it I'd be well within my rights to say "why do you need government housing? I don't! EldarGal lives in a castle so you should be too!" But the fact is we're not all equal and trying to cover that only hurts those who have less:

In a colorblind society, White people, who are unlikely to experience disadvantages due to race, can effectively ignore racism in American life, justify the current social order, and feel more comfortable with their relatively privileged standing in society (Fryberg, 2010). Most minorities, however, who regularly encounter difficulties due to race, experience colorblind ideologies quite differently. Colorblindness creates a society that denies their negative racial experiences, rejects their cultural heritage, and invalidates their unique perspectives.

...

Many Americans view colorblindness as helpful to people of color by asserting that race does not matter (Tarca, 2005). But in America, most underrepresented minorities will explain that race does matter, as it affects opportunities, perceptions, income, and so much more. When race-related problems arise, colorblindness tends to individualize conflicts and shortcomings, rather than examining the larger picture with cultural differences, stereotypes, and values placed into context. Instead of resulting from an enlightened (albeit well-meaning) position, colorblindness comes from a lack of awareness of racial privilege conferred by Whiteness (Tarca, 2005). White people can guiltlessly subscribe to colorblindness because they are usually unaware of how race affects people of color and American society as a whole.

The above example ([URL="http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism"]full article here[/URL]) is about race obviously but it applies to all things. I mean simply transpose the argument to being about "everyone's equal in terms of money" and it quickly shows to be ludicrous.


So, to bring this back to a writer writing women - if he's male that means he's been raised in a society that devalues women, objectifies and sexualises them, but also shames them for not being pure. It is only natural that he, being a worker in an industry that perpetuates this mindset oft to the extreme, should come under scrutiny for his beliefs and attitude (as should we all - being a feminist isn't just saying women are equal, it's actually trying to bring that equality about as it sure doesn't exist now).

Everyone is equal, but due to the way society works we're not treated that way, so simply wishing it to be true won't make it happen.


Related:

Women write about half the books published. Sixty-two per cent of publishers are women (although most senior roles are held by men). Women make up 80 per cent of fiction readers. And according to British research, they buy almost twice as many books of all kinds as men do.
And yet there remains a perception that compared with men, women writers and their works, both past and present, are far more often marginalised, belittled, pigeonholed, dismissed, ignored.

Until recently, I would have said that's all it was: a perception, neither proved nor disproved. Then last year, I read some statistics. An American women's literary organisation, VIDA, did a survey of how some of the most important and influential British and American literary and cultural journals looked at books in 2010.


They measured up both the numbers of book reviews written by men and by women and the number of books written by men and women that were reviewed.
I was shocked to discover that The New York Times Book Review reviewed nearly two books by men to every one by a woman — and that was one of the more generous figures. There are similar figures for Granta, The Paris Review and Poetry.

It gets worse. The New Republic reviewed 55 books by men and nine by women. At The New Yorker it was 33 books by men, nine by women. At The New York Review of Books, 306 books by men and 59 by women. At The Times Literary Supple-ment, 1036 books by men and 330 by women.

[URL="http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/a-womans-place-20120113-1pyoa.html"]via[/URL]

[eldargal]

Also relevant:




Women do not get the same opportunities as men. This was a golden opportunity to give women a chance to create a film for arguably one of the most famous fictional women in the Western world. Instead we get ti written by a guy who has yet to real justify the faith in put him in.
That faith brings us to another point, he has gotten his jobs largely based on the strength of an unpublished screenplay. His actual jobs to date have been underwhelming. This itself highlights an issue with cultural misogyny in Hollywood. A woman has to PROVE herself multiple times to even have a chance at getting a job like this, while a man can get it on potential.