A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Charon]

I mean this from last year illustrates the point with clothing, and when men say it works both ways I have to ask, how many cosmetic products do you own? How many shades of lipstick, eyeliner, mascara etc. and how much foundation and concealer, face primer, lip primer, bb cream, rough, highlights, contour powder etc. do you feel you need before you look presentable enough for your work?

Works both ways. There are numberous studies confirming that good looking people are more successful and are seen as more competent, dynamic and intelligent in general.
I would even dare to say that I own more cosmetics then most women I know. But thats me and my proud heritage as a goth.
"Presentable enough for my work" is hard as Im my own boss. But in general? Depends where and what you work and how the department sees it. Important here is the word "feel". This is the root of the issue and the "real" cause to strike at. That is indeed a feminist issue as girls need/want/are pushed into beeing "pretty".

How often do you shape your eyebrows? How often do you dye your hair? How often do you have it professionally styles? How many work outfits do you have because being seen in the same clothes more than once a week can get you in trouble?

Again bad example. Eyebrow shaping is mandatory to me, same for body shaving. I dye every month I guess... but thats because im a very dark brown and I dye black.
Professionaly styles? As often as I can afford. But its less the style, its more the relaxation.. same with a good manicure.

Yes, you are judged on your job competence by your make up. Like every other person too you are judged by your appearence. Sad but true.

[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/the-truth-about-why-beautiful-people-are-more-successful[/url]

The research reviewed by Hamermesh shows that attractive people, both men and women, earn an average of 3 or 4% more than people with below average looks, which adds up to a significant amount of money over a lifetime. Beautiful people are also hired sooner, get promotions more quickly, are higher-ranking in their companies (a study found the CEOs of larger and more successful companies are rated as being more physically attractive than the CEOs of smaller companies), and get all kinds of extra benefits and perks on the job including, perhaps, more free tickets to fly in F/B class. It turns out that more attractive people often bring more money to their companies and therefore are more valuable employees. For example, a good-looking insurance salesperson will sell more insurance than one with below average looks.

Same with cars. This one was the most stupid thing I experienced.
I hate cars. I hate driving. Its a tool I use to go from A to B. I did never bother buying an expensive car. In my mind it was not worth it.
Now I have one. The pure reason for this was the impact on my customers. Better car -> better deals. True story. So much about "competence".

[Deadlift]

Women looking nice is more important than women's comfort and potentially women's safety as far as men are concerned. Expectations for men and women are wildly different. Meeting the dress code and being clean and neat is enough for the men, but the women are expected to have immaculate makeup and styled hair, especially in retail.

To be honest, your statement about "expectation" on women to look immaculate. Had me thinking, Where is it based ? I would argue that it's women putting pressure to look their "best" on each other rather than men's expectations. My sister works in retail, in a high fashion store selling exclusive expensive women's fashion. They rarely see men in the shop at all so it's not like they dress to meet men's expectations but rather each other's and the customers. My sister says it's almost like a competition to see who looks the best and wearing the "right" make up is like an arms race, girls constantly trying to out do each other. I personally don't think there is any more pressure on women to dress a certain way than there are on men given any particular work environment. Wife worked for Barclays, she's not huge on make up and wears little. She never changed the way she looked for a work day but wore the clothing expected of her as someone working in a professional capacity. No different than her male colleagues. They too we're expected to be well groomed and tidy. Even their hair (those that still had it)
I personally think women put more pressure on themselves and each other to look 'immaculate" as you say EG than men or society. I'm pretty confident as well that those women who really make a big effort actually enjoy make up and styling themselves too.

The Cosmetics and Fashion industry is huge too, how many magazines are there aimed at women promoting fashion and make up. I wouldn't judge all women by your views about the pressures to look good etc. For many women and men for that matter it's a hobby that they enjoy.

Then there are those women who's job it is to sell make-up, you know the ones in department stores on different counters, like Clarens and Chanel etc, I'm sure they do have to go to town wearing the products they sell. That's a given.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So the CEOs and owners of all the makeup corporations in the world must be female, right? Plus, it's not like women compete to look better because that's what they're effectively trained to do?

That's the thing about systemic, societal habits. No-one knows who started them, and everyone runs along with it because it's the done thing, despite it being a PitA for a lot of people. However, it's the way of things and has been slowly, steadily cultivated by several facets of our culture for a long time now.

The thing is, if you ever spend time talking to girls, you know a lot of them talk down each other for being "trampy," but not all of them do, (and it's not the 'trampy' ones that don't talk others down.) The thing is, looks are seen as a competition, and it's damn hard to find female-targeted media that doesn't push the idea that this is what you should be. Even in movies like American Pie, where a fairly dowdy girl "gets the guy," it's only because she completely changes her looks and has a makeover. Hell, how many girls' shows are totally focused on that?

You might turn around and say, "well I dunno, I don't watch girls' shows!" Yet, you might watch The Hunger Games, a female-led movie, or read Harry Potter, written by a woman, but when you watch something targeted at girls, you realise it's mostly materialistic crap designed to make girls believe the only use for their lives is shallow beauty. You realise how crap a show that is to watch, and go to "boy's" stuff where the protagonists have more expected of them and actually achieve world-changing goals beyond getting the right dress.

Yeah, like all of us, you could look across the fence at it all, and say, "eh, must be what they like. Huh, girls." It wasn't until I sat down, chatted with girls. As in chatted with, not up, I found that hell, things kinda suck for them. I remember one of my friends telling me she buys guy's pajamas, because it's the only way she can get a Batman or similarly cool outfit without it being of the "sexy" variety. Plus, growing up with two sisters around my age shattered the illusion that girls spend all their time in perfect clothing and make-up, and love getting ready to go out. It's seen as a chore for a lot of girls to have to do it, but like a lot of stupid cultural traditions, they just do it because it's expected.

[Deadlift]

I don't disagree with your anecdotes, but just because they are your experiences or those of folks you know does not make it the norm.

Many people do like the fun of make up and dressing to look good. I personally think the "pressure and expectations on women to look good" is over used by some feminists to illustrate their view.

As I've said I know plenty of women who love make up and dressing up. Just step into any club on a Saturday night.

[40kGamer]

To be honest, your statement about "expectation" on women to look immaculate. Had me thinking, Where is it based ? I would argue that it's women putting pressure to look their "best" on each other rather than men's expectations.

This is what I’ve observed too.

Plus, it's not like women compete to look better because that's what they're effectively trained to do?

That's the thing about systemic, societal habits. No-one knows who started them, and everyone runs along with it because it's the done thing, despite it being a PitA for a lot of people. However, it's the way of things and has been slowly, steadily cultivated by several facets of our culture for a long time now.

Plus, growing up with two sisters around my age shattered the illusion that girls spend all their time in perfect clothing and make-up, and love getting ready to go out. It's seen as a chore for a lot of girls to have to do it, but like a lot of stupid cultural traditions, they just do it because it's expected.

Within the boundaries of our environment we choose our path every single day of our life. If people don’t have the fortitude to shrug off peer pressure and targeted marketing in the ‘first world’ countries that’s on them. Everyone is perfectly capable of thumbing their nose to what society ‘expects’.

[Charon]

So the CEOs and owners of all the makeup corporations in the world must be female, right?

Actually thats not too uncommon.
L'Oreal (which is one of the biggest fish in the pond) had a female CEO till 2008.
Biggest Shareholder is Liliane Bettencourt. Most cosmetics you buy today are in some of L'oreals business divisions.

[Mr Mystery]

A lot can be told just from the wording of adverts.

Women - they get 'imperfections' and 'flaws'. They promise 'your best beautiful', implying you can do better with their one. 'Pore free skin' yeah - because that's a natural look. All the promises are to make you look and feel younger. Cover those greys. Hide those wrinkles. Stop ageing. Look younger. Even products aimed at the mothers of young children feature implausibly well toned and attractive women. Nobody even slightly pear shaped or dowdy. Impeccable make up at all times. No sign of ever having been pregnant. The women featured in beauty ads for the most part? They look young because they are young. Judgement, judgement and more judgement.

Men - One that sticks in my mind has Hugh Laurie, explaining how men get 'better with age. In short, we improve'. That's a very different message, no?

[Charon]

Yeah. Thats the base of advertising.
We have gone from creating desire for a product to creating fear that you have to live without this product.
Sexism is a big part in the industry because people actually like stereotypes.
Remember that totally middle class nestle advertisment familily with a big house, 3 cars pool and garden? Totally real! I mean every middleclass family sitting in their small appartment can absolutely identify with that picture, right? Right? But people like it... because its... the perfect average family.
You word these products with "imperfections" and "flaws" because you want them to be afraid to live without something that makes them "normal".
This wording doesnt work with men. So you target other areas. Wealth, Power, Car, Sexappeal. Advertising does exactly the same here but with other products.

"Looking natural" is never ever a thing. If "looking natural" was a thing the whole cosmetics industry would go out of business. They say "looking natural" you think "looking normal".
Marketing is totally different beast ****ing everyone at every time.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure anyone likes stereotypes, so much as find them familiar.

And it's not about making people scared of not being normal - it's about making people feel flawed and devalued, that only through your product can they compete, and not have their husband nick off for a younger model.

Time for that Mitchell and Webb sketch again methinks. It's very succinct, not to mention accurate.

[Charon]

And it's not about making people scared of not being normal - it's about making people feel flawed and devalued, that only through your product can they compete, and not have their husband nick off for a younger model.

Actually thats EXACTLY what they are doing. If you are flawed you are not "normal" like all the other people with their perfect lives (god bless social media for reinforcing that *sarcasm*).
You can believe it or not. People LOVE stereotypes. They do not find them familiar as they are not. But (unlike real live) they are either black or white, no grey allowed. They give stability in an ever shifting society. The more society is twisting and turning, the harder stereotypes are valued. And the harder they try to find new people to make them responsible for their miserable lives. Terrorists and radical islamists everywhere....