A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[Wolfshade]

Except your issue is one idiot boss, the issue facing women is societal and cultural, its our entire culture expecting women to look their very best in public at all times which means thin, well dressed and feminine. While men just have to look neat and presentable.

tl;dr #notallwomen

le sigh.

[eldargal]

I don't disagree with your anecdotes, but just because they are your experiences or those of folks you know does not make it the norm.

Many people do like the fun of make up and dressing to look good. I personally think the "pressure and expectations on women to look good" is over used by some feminists to illustrate their view.

As I've said I know plenty of women who love make up and dressing up. Just step into any club on a Saturday night.

Did you read the article I linked to?

Looking nice and wearing makeup for yourself = fine
Being forced to wear makeup to look professional at your job - not fine.

The issue isn't that a lot of women like wearing makeup and are happy to do so on their own terms, the issue is that dress codes often REQUIRE women to made up to a high standard and even if they don't people perceive them as being less competent at their job if they aren't made up.

tl;dr #notallwomen

le sigh.

False equivalence. Not all men works because it isn't about individual men, it is cultural. Likewise the issue with dress code isn't about individual bosses, it is also cultural. There is a culture of linking women's worth, professionalism and competence to appearance in a way that is NOT the case for men.

[Deadlift]

Nope, I didn't read a link. I just scanned back to look. Can't see it. I would love to see a job description / requirement though that actually says "women must wear make up".

I personally think you tend to use sources and give links that confirm you bias anyway.

I can think of two jobs that could require it, one where your selling the product your required to wear and maybe airline stewards. The latter I've seen both sexes wear ott amounts of make up.

But your statement that to be successful professionally as a woman you must be thin, glamorous and fashionable is false. You've only got to look at your female members of parliament to see that's not true. Ann Widecombe as an example, or the late Mo Molam.

*edit* found your links! the 1st with the chap who wore the same suit for a year on tv whilst his female colleague who didn't was criticized by members of the public on how she looked. Just a hunch but I'm guessing the majority of people writing in to comment on her looks we're other women. Men really don't care and certainly wouldn't waste the time of day writing to a show about such drivel.

The other is just an article written for the NY Times. It's just an opinion, one that matches your own but has no real "facts" in it. But I did enjoy the part where it states women use make up as a tool to get further ahead, not because it's expected but because it worked in their favour.

[daboarder]

*edit* found your links! the 1st with the chap who wore the same suit for a year on tv whilst his female colleague who didn't was criticized by members of the public on how she looked. Just a hunch but I'm guessing the majority of people writing in to comment on her looks we're other women. Men really don't care and certainly wouldn't waste the time of day writing to a show about such drivel.

That'll be Karl Stefanovich, an Australian morning news presenter, I actually linked to the initial article for that almost 3 months ago now.

What he was trying to illustrate was that no-one gave a damn about his appearance (if they had they would have noticed the suit didn't change), other than that he was well groomed and attired. whereas people DID care about his co-hosts appearance.

I'm not sure if I feel he has been effective in highlighting that, on the one hand its an ostensibly good point and a great way of demonstrating said point. On the other hand its hardly a scientific study, it has no control (his co-host would have to wear the same suit for a year and his change at minimum). Couple this with a lack of information about just WHO was complaining (as you pointed out it could be a majority of women, hardly patriarchal villainy) and it kind seems a bit of a publicity stunt.

Then again, he did have the balls to rip the **** out of Tony Abbott so he seems ok in my book.

False equivalence. Not all men works because it isn't about individual men, it is cultural. Likewise the issue with dress code isn't about individual bosses, it is also cultural. There is a culture of linking women's worth, professionalism and competence to appearance in a way that is NOT the case for men.

And yet there is no such thing as "standard work attire" for women is there. In fact its only men who deal with the stipulation that they must wear a suit, collared shirt and tie for the vast majority of their lives....but little details right?

[Charon]

Being forced to wear makeup to look professional at your job - not fine.

The issue isn't that a lot of women like wearing makeup and are happy to do so on their own terms, the issue is that dress codes often REQUIRE women to made up to a high standard and even if they don't people perceive them as being less competent at their job if they aren't made up.

Suits? Earrings? Tatoos? Bermudas? Piercings?
Which of them is the dresscode for men that is absolutely required to look competent? It is totally accepted that men HAVE to wear suits. This dresscode is carved in stone. You are judged by your ****ing suit. You are totally unprofessional if you do not wear one. This IS cultural and it IS the case for men.

[Gotthammer]

The other is just an article written for the NY Times. It's just an opinion, one that matches your own but has no real "facts" in it.

From [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html"]the NY Times article[/URL]:

according to a new study ... said Nancy Etcoff, the study’s lead author and an assistant clinical professor of psychology at Harvard University ... The study was paid for by Procter & Gamble, ... researchers like Professor Etcoff and others from Boston University and the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute were responsible for its design and execution.

Opinion???


[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1346530/Make-agoraphobia-A-women-wouldn-t-dare-outside-make-on.html"]Another study[/URL] showing 1 in 3 women don't leave the house without makeup, 6 in 10 wouldn't go to work without it, 1 in 10 never [URL="http://www.disruptivewomen.net/2013/05/27/stripping-our-masks-redefining-attractiveness-and-questioning-social-pressure-to-wear-makeup/"]let their partners see them without makeup[/URL]. Woman who had to quit her job at Harrods [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/05/harrods-employee-fired-makeup_n_890238.html?ir=Women"]after they implemented a new store wide makeup code[/URL] ("Full makeup at all time: base, blusher, full eyes (not too heavy), lipstick, lip liner and gloss are worn at all time and maintained discreetly (please take into account the store display lighting which has a 'washing out' effect)." It also says women must wear stiletto or kitten heels at all times). Also the Daily Mail reported it as: "If you're too bolshy to put on some lippy, why should any firm give you a job?" and said: "Why does a young woman think her desire to show us her open pores and ruddy complexion outweighs the wishes of her employer to present a polished face to the customer?" because a woman's actual face is somehow undesirable apparently?

Also [URL="http://www.workplacefairness.org/groomingcodes#4"]Casino employee of 20 years[/URL] fired for not conforming with a policy that requires women to wear foundation, concealer, or powder, blush, mascara, and to make sure that they have lip color on at all times (a challenge which has earned cosmetics manufacturers millions from women tired of constant reapplication after eating or even talking.) Not only do women have to wear all these types of makeup, but they were required to have a "makeover" by an "image consultant." Once the employee and the image consultant had devised the employee's "personal best" look, then the employee's picture would be taken, and the employee's appearance would be expected to conform to the picture each day she or he came to work.
Men, however, only had to maintain trimmed hair and nails (and facial hair was acceptable).

This quote (written by a man):

There is no question that you look better with your hair and makeup done than you do without it. If your boyfriend tells you that you are hotter without it, because he prefers when you "look more natural," he is either lying or you aren't doing your makeup correctly.

The "[URL="http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/04/what-men-think-of-you-without-makeup.html"]article[/URL]" also goes on to state that "He loves a woman who is confident in her own skin" but also that women should wear makeup and do their hair for sex?

no makeup but the light this morning was nice

Reblogging my own selfie because posting this was a really big step for me, and I’d like to share why.

I’m not allowed to leave the house like this. If I come downstairs without a full face of makeup on, I’m told to go back upstairs and not come down again until I look “decent.” Foundation, eyeliner, mascara, eyebrow pencil, and blush, at the very least, before I’m allowed to be seen by anyone. My mom always tells me that I “look like hell” without my makeup, that I can’t expect people to want to interact with me when I don’t even try to make my face “presentable.”

After years of hearing this from my mother every day, I started to believe her. I decided that I was truly repulsive. That I really did need to cake my face with makeup in order for people to respect me. That no one would ever think I was pretty—how could they, when under all that makeup, I was so disgusting? My self-consciousness developed into outright self-hatred. I started cutting myself, carving words like “ugly” into my thighs. I haven’t worn a bathing suit in five years, because I don’t want my friends to see my humiliating scars.

A few months ago, I left home for my first semester of college. When you’re living with roommates, you really can’t avoid being seen without makeup. The first time I interacted with my roomies barefaced, and none of them exclaimed “holy hell, you look awful!”, I was honestly surprised. It dawned on me that maybe my mom was wrong. Maybe she was a little over the line in telling a teenager that she was too repulsive to be seen by other human beings in her natural state. After a few weeks, I started to leave my dorm without makeup. I realized that I could go to class, or get lunch, or meet up with friends, or do whatever I wanted, and never have to do a thing to my face if I didn’t want to. For the first time, I was in control of my own damn appearance.

When I went home for Thanksgiving Break, I got exactly what I expected from my mom: I came downstairs in my pajamas one morning, nothing on my face, and I was met with yelling about how I can’t expect people to want to be around me when I look like that. But now, I know better. I know I don’t have to believe her. So when I went back upstairs to paint my face according to her wishes, I took these pictures first. And then I put them on the Internet, for everyone to see.

This isn’t just a selfie to me; this is my way of saying, “I’m done letting you make me hate myself.” This is me declaring, “I don’t care what you say. I’m not ugly, or disgusting, or repulsive. I’m letting people see me without your precious makeup on. And you know what? I look just fine.”

That wasn’t an easy thing for me to realize. It took years, and support from some very kind and patient friends, and a lot of ****ty self-loathing before I got to this point. And forgive me if I get a little corny here, but please never let anyone else determine your self-worth. Not your parents, not your friends, not anyone. No matter what anyone says, you are not ugly, or inferior, or whatever they may say you are. You’re perfectly fine the way you are, so please ****ing love yourself.

A [URL="http://smallbusiness.chron.com/influence-advertisement-women-attitude-toward-cosmetics-69974.html"]2002 study published in the "Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology"[/URL] found that women expressed more dissatisfaction with their appearances after watching cosmetics advertisements. Lots more information [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/jun/10/body-image-anxiety-eva-wiseman"]here as well[/URL].




14 year old Julia Bluhm challenged Seventeen Magazine to stop photoshopping the girls in their shoots and they did - or at least they said they [URL="http://jezebel.com/5923893/meet-seventeen-magazines-new-photoshop-policy-same-as-the-old-photoshop-policy"]never have and never will[/URL] so will keep doing that. Eating disorders, low self-esteem, and depression are the most common mental health problems in girls and women. The Report of the APA Task Force on The Sexualization of Girls, issued in 2007, points out the connection between these problems and the sexualization of girls.

Also:





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And yet there is no such thing as "standard work attire" for women is there. In fact its only men who deal with the stipulation that they must wear a suit, collared shirt and tie for the vast majority of their lives....but little details right?

Suits? Earrings? Tatoos? Bermudas? Piercings?
Which of them is the dresscode for men that is absolutely required to look competent? It is totally accepted that men HAVE to wear suits. This dresscode is carved in stone. You are judged by your ****ing suit. You are totally unprofessional if you do not wear one. This IS cultural and it IS the case for men.

Women also get judged on their clothes too. I don't think anyone's saying men don't have to conform re: clothes at work - the point is women have expectations about how their body looks, how they can't show the bare skin on their face even if they are conventionally attractive as they will be perceived as a lesser person for it. Which is something men do not have to deal with.

Yes "more attractive men are seen as better than less attractive men", and yes that's a problem, but men don't have to make themselves look like someone else each morning to be seen as simply acceptable.

[daboarder]

Women also get judged on their clothes too. I don't think anyone's saying men don't have to conform re: clothes at work - the point is women have expectations about how their body looks, how they can't show the bare skin on their face even if they are conventionally attractive as they will be perceived as a lesser person for it. Which is something men do not have to deal with.

Yes "more attractive men are seen as better than less attractive men", and yes that's a problem, but men don't have to make themselves look like someone else each morning to be seen as simply acceptable.

Except....you know, when they are....

False equivalence. Not all men works because it isn't about individual men, it is cultural. Likewise the issue with dress code isn't about individual bosses, it is also cultural. There is a culture of linking women's worth, professionalism and competence to appearance in a way that is NOT the case for men.

seeing as we're throwing around non-scientific and anecdotal evidence, do me a favour,

Tell me which of the people in each of these pictures have their clothes pre-determined by cultural/social expectation as opposed to their own desires......









OH, and believe me, its been an interesting few years as someone who doesn't particularly like to grow a beard....because HEY guess what.....you know, prejudged by looks and fashion.....


I mean seriously, mens fashion so predetermined that when it changes it actually causes stock market chaos.....

[url]http://www.businessinsider.com.au/beards-are-hurting-razor-sales-2013-8[/url]

NOPE! not a predetemined look at all, no sir

[Gotthammer]

Okay... then I'm wrong and EG did say that.

But you're also welcome to address the rest of what I said:

The point is women have expectations about how their body looks, how they can't show the bare skin on their face even if they are conventionally attractive as they will be perceived as a lesser person for it. Which is something men do not have to deal with.

Yes "more attractive men are seen as better than less attractive men", and yes that's a problem, but men don't have to make themselves look like someone else each morning to be seen as simply acceptable.

See also: feminism not being a monolithic organisation.

See also: discussions of feminism in this thread represents the opinions of each individual author & we don't have secret meetings about things so actually don't have the same thoughts about every issue.

See also: once again discussing how society affects women has been turned to discussing how society affects men completely ignoring the women's issues and any evidence about such things.

[Psychosplodge]

See also: once again discussing how society affects women has been turned to discussing how society affects men completely ignoring the women's issues and any evidence about such things.

I don't think that's fair. When someone suggests women are held to this standard that men aren't. If we discuss it the examples are of course going to include men being held to whatever standard and examples where women aren't.

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NSFW -topless protest.
Doesn't stuff like this normally make the news? This [URL="http://dither87.tumblr.com/post/107281876935/turv-members-of-ukrainian-feminist-group-femen"]link[/URL] is literally the only place I've seen it.

[daboarder]

Okay... then I'm wrong and EG did say that.

But you're also welcome to address the rest of what I said:

The point is women have expectations about how their body looks, how they can't show the bare skin on their face even if they are conventionally attractive as they will be perceived as a lesser person for it. Which is something men do not have to deal with.

Yes "more attractive men are seen as better than less attractive men", and yes that's a problem, but men don't have to make themselves look like someone else each morning to be seen as simply acceptable.

Well I cant, because you've asked for opinions, which means anything I or others post will be inevitably dismissed as "anecdotal"

See no-one judges whether conforming to society means changing yourself into something else other than YOU

I dare say there are many, numerous men who feel the need to shave, wear the same clothing constantly and have short hair in order to get ahead in life is changing themselves daily into someone else.

But it'll all be just hand waived away as "thats not the same judgement"
You hear so little about mens appearance, not because somehow its judged less, but because as Charon said, the appropriate appearance for men is so set in stone that you CANNOT even attempt to be non-conforming. Its the very variability of acceptable womens clothing that gives rise to the mass opinions and judgement's about it. Where as ours is not variable at all regardless of what we desire. We literally have less choice or options in our clothing than women.

Seriously, how far do you really think a man would get in life if he DIDNT wear the Suit/Collar/Tie?


EDIT: Seriously as to not being judged.....think about what conclusions YOU draw about a man just from the state or existence of their beard.....