In the Shadow of Tolkein: 40k and Collaborative Fiction

[Nabterayl]

So ... if you can answer that way, here's my take on the issue of men writing women. I don't think the question should be, "Can a man write a woman as well as a woman could?" We may as well ask whether a non-veteran can write soldiers as well as a veteran can, or whether a non-combat veteran can write soldiers as well as a combat veteran can, or whether a professional author can write secret police as well as a secret policeman can, and on and on the line it goes.

I submit that the question we should be asking is, "Does writing this character as a woman make the work stronger than writing the character as a man, or not writing the character at all?" Sometimes the answer to that question is no, but I think the answer is yes more than you are giving authors credit for.

[The Last Lamenter]

That's a valid point. Cheers.

[YorkNecromancer]

I submit that the question we should be asking is, "Does writing this character as a woman make the work stronger than writing the character as a man, or not writing the character at all?" Sometimes the answer to that question is no, but I think the answer is yes more than you are giving authors credit for.

It's a good way to look at it. The defense of "You have no experience of X, so therefore you can't write X authentically" is obviously a weak argument: if that were a good enough reason to shut people down, every speculative fiction genre would be instantly rendered pointless, as no-one has experience.

Now, it's true that men can often write horrendous femae characters... but those men also tend to write horrendous characters full stop.

The best writing takes reality and extrapolates logically. I have no experience of being a woman, but I have experience of being with women, having them as peers, colleagues, friends, family, lovers. I also have access to this thing called The Internet, where hundreds of thousands of authentic female voices can be read and listened to every day: Jezebel, io9, Feminist Frequency, Requires Only That You Hate, mumsnet, and so on and so forth... All it takes to write female characters is research, and treat the subject matter with respect.

Male writers only fail at female characters when they forget the key word is "character".

[Nabterayl]

I submit that it would not just shut down speculative fiction, but all fiction that was not reworked autobiography.

I don't mean to dismiss The Last Lamenter's point that authors of speculative fiction can convincingly write the speculative part because nobody has lived it, of course. But I think that's not fundamentally different from what fiction writers always do: try to understand something they have not personally lived and present it in an artistically meritorious way. That's why a good writer who has never been a detective can still write mystery stories, and also why a good male writer can write better female characters than can a bad female writer. Personal experience usually helps, but it is a supplement to - not a replacement for - authorial skill.

I'm reminded of an introduction to one of the Ghosts omnibuses in which Abnett said he gets asked by veterans among his readers asking on a fairly regular basis whether he, too, is a veteran. The answer is no, but the fact that the question gets asked goes to show that enough authorial skill can let you convincingly write something with which you have zero personal experience. Comes to that ... I don't know what it's like being a woman reading women characters written by men. But I do know that I have plenty of favorite female authors who I think write men just as well as my favorite male authors do.

[YorkNecromancer]

Literally just found an excellent quote from Joss Whedon on the topic:

Toymakers will tell you [movies with a superheroine as the main character] won’t sell enough, and movie people will point to the two terrible superheroine movies that were made and say, You see? It can’t be done. It’s stupid, and I’m hoping The Hunger Games will lead to a paradigm shift. It’s frustrating to me that I don’t see anybody developing one of these movies. It actually pisses me off. My daughter watched The Avengers and was like, “My favorite characters were the Black Widow and Maria Hill,” and I thought, Yeah, of course they were. I read a beautiful thing Junot Diaz wrote: “If you want to make a human being into a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves.”

Full article: [url]http://jezebel.com/joss-whedon-is-pissed-that-there-aren-t-more-superheroi-511804793[/url]

[DarkLink]

Also, something Scott Adams (dilbert guy) said, in response to discussion about a Dilbert movie: "Movies are good or bad because of execution, not concept. Even outside of the movie realm, ideas generally have no economic value whatsoever, except in rare cases such as when a patent is issued. And even in those cases it's the patent law that creates the value, not the ideas."

If there have been crappy superheroine movies, it's because of poor execution, not poor concept. The Dark Knight is a movie about a guy who dresses up as a bat fighting a psychotic clown. It's a terrible idea. But it made one of the most critically acclaimed movies in recent cinema history.

So long as they don't invest in superheroine movies, their failure will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, when it should be an area ripe for investment and untapped wealth.

[YorkNecromancer]

A Gay Tau? never thought of that one.

I imagine not; sexuality is not one of 40K's key themes. Nonetheless, our sexuality, for better or worse, shapes a large part of our character. I see no reason not to include it as a factor in the characters I design, sometimes as a main theme, sometimes as something that's just there in the background. It all depends on the story's need.

I think when it comes to military characters, there are significant areas of human experience that are often ignored, sidelined, or minimised - especially sexuality or orientations that are deemed taboo by the military. Needless to say, we learn more about a culture from what it hides than what it reveals. As a result, some of the most compelling narratives military stories have to offer can be drawn from the difficulties of a soldier forced to hide something essential to his or her nature.

Some interesting links on the topic:
[url]http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/24/48664.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/transgender-navy-seal-article-1.1362490[/url] - the positive responses from the other SEALs is something the American armed forces should be justly proud of.

I currently have a Death Company Dreadnought whose backstory is a homage to the film Gods and Monsters, specifically this heartbreaking scene about Barnett on the wire: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgTsJ7hBQ-4[/url]

My dreadnought's story is that he was romantically in love with one of his battle-brothers; when his lover was killed, he fell to the Black Rage - because which of us wouldn't? - and his need for revenge was so great even death couldn't stop him. I modelled the Dreadnought so that he has his lover's skull in an ormulu box on the sarcophagus, so that even in death, they are together. Now, that story may make people angry for whatever reason (OMG YOU CAN'T HAVE GAY MARINES BECAUSE FLUFF!!!111!!) but the story appeals to me because it has narrative consistency, because it's what I'd do if the love of my life was killed, and because there's a very Imperium-style poetry to carrying your lover's skull to war with you. Plus, they're my models. I can do what I want with them.

I don't see a grave enough error to warrant me having the right to demand anything or be angry. I would feel like I was complicit with a witch-hunt.

None of us have the right to demand anything. We have the duty to do so; that's kind of how justice should work. As for not seing it as a grave enough error, I invite you to consider that that is due to the fact you're (I presume from your reponses, and I obviously apologise if I am in error) a straight white male - you have all the representations of yourself you need, so of course you don't see a problem. So maybe you could take a stand for those who don't have your levels of representation? Or support those who do? And I think it's important to avoid emotive language and hyperbole - it's not so much a witch hunt (no-one's going to get burned, and no books will be destroyed as heresy); more a group of people saying "Hey guys? Maybe you could try doing this thing you've never done before, instead of this thing you always do. I know you're scared, because it's new and all, but you should do it - even if it scares you - because it's the right thing to do, and you'll make new friends".

I'm sure it's good, send me the link

I had included these in the original post, but for the sake of shilling my work...

My largely dreadful fanfic: [url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?18835-Wherein-I-Attempt-to-Write-40K-Fanfic[/url]
My blog, which I am slightly prouder of (updated every Sunday): [url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/blog.php?17348-YorkNecromancer[/url]

This has been a very pleasant discussion so far. I hope it lasts.

[Pater Sin]

I would just like to point out that Tau firewarriors are as likly to be female as male. Withe the armour they wear how would you be able to tell the difference, they won't nessesarily have sculpted armour like the assoted types of eldar.

[YorkNecromancer]

Oh indeed. It'd just be nice if there were two helmetless heads - one male, one female.

Seriously, how much does 0.00001 grams of plastic cost? Just leave off a grenade pack or something.