New Eldar Codex = New Eldar Questions

[chicop76]

well we all know you only comment to cause more trouble so your post is in deed worthless

You saying I can't do tha . It's assumed by me when I smoking and drinking this is the proper order of things. I don't see any rule stoping you from assaulting through a vehicle. Just don't disembark. You cut a hole in the side and assault. That way you are not disembarking at all.

[Shas'O Alohcry]

You saying I can't do tha . It's assumed by me when I smoking and drinking this is the proper order of things. I don't see any rule stoping you from assaulting through a vehicle. Just don't disembark. You cut a hole in the side and assault. That way you are not disembarking at all.

Orks can do that

[cebalrai]

We need an FAQ almost as badly as Banshees need grenades.

[rle68]

Being a valid question is not the same as having no answer. Yes, it's a valid question. I agree that the people who won't even grant it that much dignity are both wrong and being rude.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, their analysis is still correct. The answer to the perfectly valid question of whether Battle Focus allows a unit to assault after running is no.

Battle Focus does not allow you to move d6" and shoot in the Shooting phase. It allows you to Run and shoot in the Shooting phase. This plainly conflicts with page 14 when it says, "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing" (call this Rule A). It does not conflict with page 14 when it says, "Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase" (call this Rule B). As there is no conflict with Rule B, Battle Focus does not overturn Rule B; indeed, nothing in Battle Focus suggests that it purports to overturn Rule B.

while i agree with your assessment it really doesnt have to.. here is why

units that run in the shooting phase cannot charge as you say and your correct however.. now BF eldar can run and shoot same phase.. if the new rule eliminates the old rule or countermands it for a better term then the "discrepency"can be made that since they can do as a universal rule of BF.. they could then assault in the assault phase

Battle Focus does not allow you to move d6" ..

no you move as normal in the movement phase.. in the shooting phase you declare im going to run and shoot which you have to do or shoot then run both must be declared at the same in in the shooting phase

This plainly conflicts with page 14 when it says, "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing" (call this Rule A).

its not a conflict its a new codex rule.. the two are not combined.. dex trumps rules book.. we all agree on that.. only FAQ trumps dex or when dex says see BRB

It does not conflict with page 14 when it says, "Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase"

this part doesnt apply as now they can both run and shoot in the same phase.. the precluding rule was set for units that could do one or the other and not both

again ill state openly i dont think the intent was to allow it, however being that BF now allows you to do things not allowed before in the same phase.. and doesnt make any mention of assault not being allowed.. case can made that since it doesnt say they cannot.. they still can...

there is no rule in any source anywhere that lets a unit run and shoot in the same phase or vice versa except the edlar dex..the brb rules you quote deal with one or the other not both

and the absence of denial can lead one to believe in the positive...i dont think it should but without a confirmed FAQ saying so you cant disprove it either

im not trying to be difficult for difficulties sake im simply opening up a line of discussion that could cause some tension in games should it come up thats all

as you stated some people arent willing to entertain the possibility and thats to their own opinion while i dont agree with it i can see both sides to this case

[Nabterayl]

if the new rule eliminates the old rule or countermands it for a better term then the "discrepency"can be made that since they can do as a universal rule of BF.. they could then assault in the assault phase

Here's the point where we seem to be running into confusion. When you say "the old rule," which rule do you mean? Can you quote the exact rule you are thinking of - no more, no less?

Here's the entire text of the rule I'm thinking of. Let me know if it's the same as the one you're thinking of:

In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing.

That's it. That is the only rule that Battle Focus countermands.

its not a conflict its a new codex rule.. the two are not combined.. dex trumps rules book.. we all agree on that.. only FAQ trumps dex or when dex says see BRB

Dex trumps rulebook when, and only when, there is a conflict. That's what page 7 says. The conflict is critical. The BRB says that you cannot run and shoot. The codex says that you can run and shoot. One or the other statements, as a matter of logic, must be false. That is a conflict, plain as day. Because there is a conflict, the BRB rule goes away and the codex rule takes its place.

But there is no conflict between Battle Focus and the other rule. The BRB says that you cannot run and assault. The codex says that you can run and shoot. As a matter of logic, both statements can be true. There is no conflict there. Because both statements can be true, the rules do not tell us to delete either of them.

this part doesnt apply as now they can both run and shoot in the same phase.. the precluding rule was set for units that could do one or the other and not both

I think this assertion rests on an important assumption, so I want to try to draw it out. Why do you think that "Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase" is dependent upon "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing?" Your approach seems to assume that those are not two independent rules. Why do you think that? Is it something in the formatting? Do you have a logical proof to present that one must be dependent upon the other? They look like two completely independent rules to me.

If they are two independent rules, then overriding one (i.e., In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing") does not call into question the other (i.e., Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase). If they are independent, that would be like saying, "Look, the BRB clearly doesn't contemplate units being able to shoot and run in the same phase. So clearly, the rule that blast weapons cannot fire Snap Shots is now called into question." Your approach only works - in fact, implicitly assumes - that they are not two independent rules.

Why do you think that?

[DarkLink]

We need an FAQ almost as badly as Banshees need grenades.

On Running and Charging? I'm pretty sure that rle68's the only person who doesn't understand that one.

[chicop76]

On Running and Charging? I'm pretty sure that rle68's the only person who doesn't understand that one.

He's on to something. If I model a wave sepent open topped than I sould be able to assault out of it like an open top vehicle.

[monkiman]

If I model a wave sepent open topped than I sould be able to assault out of it like an open top vehicle.

Say what!? The wave serpent has a set of rules. Open topped is not one of them. No matter how you model it, it don't change the rules. You can certainly play however you want if you and your opponents agree to it, but it's not the rules of the game.

[chicop76]

Say what!? The wave serpent has a set of rules. Open topped is not one of them. No matter how you model it, it don't change the rules. You can certainly play however you want if you and your opponents agree to it, but it's not the rules of the game.

I figured if you can move shoot run assault legally I thought you could do that too.

[rle68]

Here's the point where we seem to be running into confusion. When you say "the old rule," which rule do you mean? Can you quote the exact rule you are thinking of - no more, no less?

Here's the entire text of the rule I'm thinking of. Let me know if it's the same as the one you're thinking of:

In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing.

That's it. That is the only rule that Battle Focus countermands.


Dex trumps rulebook when, and only when, there is a conflict. That's what page 7 says. The conflict is critical. The BRB says that you cannot run and shoot. The codex says that you can run and shoot. One or the other statements, as a matter of logic, must be false. That is a conflict, plain as day. Because there is a conflict, the BRB rule goes away and the codex rule takes its place.

But there is no conflict between Battle Focus and the other rule. The BRB says that you cannot run and assault. The codex says that you can run and shoot. As a matter of logic, both statements can be true. There is no conflict there. Because both statements can be true, the rules do not tell us to delete either of them.


I think this assertion rests on an important assumption, so I want to try to draw it out. Why do you think that "Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase" is dependent upon "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing?" Your approach seems to assume that those are not two independent rules. Why do you think that? Is it something in the formatting? Do you have a logical proof to present that one must be dependent upon the other? They look like two completely independent rules to me.

If they are two independent rules, then overriding one (i.e., In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing") does not call into question the other (i.e., Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase). If they are independent, that would be like saying, "Look, the BRB clearly doesn't contemplate units being able to shoot and run in the same phase. So clearly, the rule that blast weapons cannot fire Snap Shots is now called into question." Your approach only works - in fact, implicitly assumes - that they are not two independent rules.

Why do you think that?

im going to revise my previous comments and say after re reading numerous pages that i was looking at it in the wrong order
got some mixed up 5th and 6th stuff going my bad

no they cant assault after using battle focus...the may part of the rule got me screwed up i was assuming they had to do it thus youd never be allowed to assault..

never mind im wrong and i thank you for helping me make myself go back and look for an answer to go along with my feeling of no it wouldnt be allowed