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  1. #1
    Fly Lord
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    Default LEGALWATCH: Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Trial

    The trial is underway in Chicago in open court.

    Trial Location and Schedule

    U. S. District Court
    219 S. Dearborn St., Chicago, IL 60604
    Tel: 312-435-5684

    Judge Matthew F. Kennelly - Courtroom 2103

    The Court sets aside the following dates for trial in this case:
    June 3, 2013 (a.m. session - jury selection; p.m. session - trial),
    June 4-7, 2013, June 10-11, 2013, and, if needed for closing arguments, the morning of June 12, 2013.

    The trial day typically will extend from 9:45 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. and from 1:30 or 1:45 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., with morning and afternoon breaks. The Court notes that this is longer than its typical trial day. The Court reserves the right to extend any given trial day to 5:30 if warranted in order to complete the trial within the dates set aside.

    Trial Summary

    Jury selection is completed, and the trial is underway. Both sides have completed Opening Statements, and the first witness is on the stand:

    Alan Merrett - Head of Games Workshop IP

    Mr. Merrett's testimony was hours in length, initially focused on explaining Games Workshop's business to the jury. Some highlights from his testimony:

    -A Realm of Battle board was pulled out to show the jury to help explain what wargaming is.

    -Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".

    -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".

    -It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".

    -Warhammer 40,000 was described to the jury as "Warhammer Fantasy in space", along with describing the Eldar as "Space Elfs", along with other "space" factions such as "Space Orcs".

    -The Dark Eldar were described as "spikey, evil, and every other evil cliche".

    -The Tau were described as "modern sci-fi; more traditional sci-fi" in appearance, as opposed to the archaic aesthetic of the other ranges.

    UPDATE: END OF WEEK 1 Summary

    Testomony was heard from:
    Alan Merrett (GW head of IP)
    Andy Jones (Head of Licensing/Legal)
    Gil Steveson (GW Chief Council)

    Nick Valluci (Owner of CHS)

    Alan Merrett Testimony:

    Merrett outlined a general summary of GW's point of view with several points:

    - GW takes pride in the "quality and originality" of their products. They do not like when any other company makes miniatures that are based on their own product line, viewing many of these to be of inferior quality. Me mentioned the aftermarket for add-ons "makes us jolly-cross indeed"

    Andy Jones Testimony:

    Jones laid out many GW points points involving both licensing and financials under questioning:

    -GW latest annual numbers reflect revenue of $54 million USD in North american sales. 50% of that was 40K, the other 50% all other GW products sales combined.

    -GW was described as having licensing agreements with "big companies", and there is a perception that any such "big companies" would be upset by percieved theft of GW IP. He introduced no evidence of licensees becoming upset having actually occurred.

    -GW is concerned that the poor quality of CHS products will rub off or bring down the percieved quality of the GW line in the eyes of licensees. He introduced no evidence of this having actually occurred.

    -GW feels that they should get to decide when a product they invent in print and illustration gets to come to market in the form of a physical miniature. When a company such as CHS introduces a competing miniature that was previously unreleased into the market ahead of GW, they consider this this "poisoning the well". Other companies such Kromlech, Maxmini, Scibor, Hitech were listed by name as being examples this concept.

    -GW considers the following naming schemes to be acceptable for the aftermarket, applying to all products that interact with their own 40K products:
    PRODUCT NAME: "compatible with 28mm science fiction miniatures"
    PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: "compatable with Games Workshop [insert exact GW kit title]"

    -Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"

    -GW Legal has an "IP Protection Group" which investigates allegations of IP infringement and decides whether/how to proceed. They are usually first alerted to alleged IP infringement by GW customers who they consider to be "our first line of defense as it were".

    -GW has 200+ casefiles on organizations and individuals it is investigating for potential legal action against.

    Nick Valluci Testmony
    -Mr Valluci was examined by GW council vigorously.

    -CHS disclosed that its total gross revenue before expenses for a roughly 4 year period in question was @$400,000
    -Valluci took home $3000 a month from CHS, while his overseas partner took home $2000 per month.

    Evidence Brought Before the Jury:

    The following game product was entered into evidence by the Judge over objections from GW council:
    [URL="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17490/space-marines"]SPACE MARINES SCIENCE FICTION MINIATURES RULES (1980, Fantasy Games Unlimited)[/URL]
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	space-marines-sci-fi-miniatures-rules.jpg 
Views:	768 
Size:	182.0 KB 
ID:	4198

    Both sides are done. The jury is deliberating.

    Now we wait...

    [URL="http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/gov.uscourts.ilnd_.250791.388.2.pdf"]Partial Trial Transcript [/URL](vis Blood of Kittens)
    Last edited by Bigred; 06-13-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigred View Post
    The trial is underway in Chicago in open court.

    Trial Location and Schedule

    U. S. District Court
    219 S. Dearborn St., Chicago, IL 60604
    Tel: 312-435-5684

    Judge Matthew F. Kennelly - Courtroom 2103

    The Court sets aside the following dates for trial in this case:
    June 3, 2013 (a.m. session - jury selection; p.m. session - trial),
    June 4-7, 2013, June 10-11, 2013, and, if needed for closing arguments, the morning of June 12, 2013.

    The trial day typically will extend from 9:45 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. and from 1:30 or 1:45 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., with morning and afternoon breaks. The Court notes that this is longer than its typical trial day. The Court reserves the right to extend any given trial day to 5:30 if warranted in order to complete the trial within the dates set aside.

    Trial Summary

    Jury selection is completed, and the trial is underway. Both sides have completed Opening Statements, and the first witness is on the stand:

    Alan Merrett - Head of Games Workshop IP

    Mr. Merrett's testimony was hours in length, initially focused on explaining Games Workshop's business to the jury. Some highlights from his testimony:

    -A Realm of Battle board was pulled out to show the jury to help explain what wargaming is.

    -Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".

    -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".

    -It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".

    -Warhammer 40,000 was described to the jury as "Warhammer Fantasy in space", along with describing the Eldar as "Space Elfs", along with other "space" factions such as "Space Orcs".

    -The Dark Eldar were described as "spikey, evil, and every other evil cliche".

    -The Tau were described as "modern sci-fi; more traditional sci-fi" in appearance, as opposed to the archaic aesthetic of the other ranges.

    Testimony is ongoing.
    I would love to be on that jury.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sainhann View Post
    I would love to be on that jury.
    There's no way anyone that reads this site would have been selected by either attorney team.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealGenius View Post
    There's no way anyone that reads this site would have been selected by either attorney team.
    Yup, anyone who had more than the most passing knowledge of GW would have been kicked off the jury precisely to avoid obnoxious haters trying to exert influence for one side or another.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldargal View Post
    Yup, anyone who had more than the most passing knowledge of GW would have been kicked off the jury precisely to avoid obnoxious haters trying to exert influence for one side or another.
    I agree.

    Although I wanted to see what they described Necrons. Space Skeletons. I think He Man should sue. Also I think while He Man is sueing that the writter from Star Ship Troopers, if still alive should sue for the obvious rip offs of space marines and tyranids. Well you can argue a rip off from aliens which in turn is a rip off from Star Ship Troopers.

    Although star craft and war craft is not fantasy or 40k ripoffs. Nor is halo a rip off from 40k or Aliens.

    I say at one point a ripoff is a ripoff and no one cares. If GW wins than I think atleast the Aliens people should sue GW with the Star Ship Troopers people. As well as Tolkien which is basically fantasy.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by chicop76 View Post
    I agree.

    Although I wanted to see what they described Necrons. Space Skeletons. I think He Man should sue. Also I think while He Man is sueing that the writter from Star Ship Troopers, if still alive should sue for the obvious rip offs of space marines and tyranids. Well you can argue a rip off from aliens which in turn is a rip off from Star Ship Troopers.

    Although star craft and war craft is not fantasy or 40k ripoffs. Nor is halo a rip off from 40k or Aliens.

    I say at one point a ripoff is a ripoff and no one cares. If GW wins than I think atleast the Aliens people should sue GW with the Star Ship Troopers people. As well as Tolkien which is basically fantasy.
    I think what you're trying to hint at is where infringing on copyright starts and where generic ideas in the public domain ends.
    That isn't what is at trial here, Chapter House made models for Games Workshop games but also used Games Workshops trademarks to market those products and used identical designs and art styles.

    Starship Troopers Space Marines are very different to Games Workshop Space Marines in all but name, the Tyranids aren't anything like the race of aliens in that novel and the Bugs of the film came after the Tyranids, the Xenomorphs of Alien were an obvious influence on the Tyranids though, particularly on the original Hunter-Slayer models, however, they diversified away from that years ago, to the point of not being pretty distinct.

    And although hugely influential in the setup of modern, generic Fantasy, Tolkien himself borrowed a great deal from mythology and legend and other Fantasy writings and can hardly be thought of as original.

    If there is anyone GW could be accused of ripping off for 40K, you need to go back and read some early 2000 AD, they might have a case as Rouge Trader is basically all influenced by the first 50 progs, Judge Dredd in particular.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrksOrksOrks View Post
    I think what you're trying to hint at is where infringing on copyright starts and where generic ideas in the public domain ends.
    That isn't what is at trial here, Chapter House made models for Games Workshop games but also used Games Workshops trademarks to market those products and used identical designs and art styles.

    Starship Troopers Space Marines are very different to Games Workshop Space Marines in all but name, the Tyranids aren't anything like the race of aliens in that novel and the Bugs of the film came after the Tyranids, the Xenomorphs of Alien were an obvious influence on the Tyranids though, particularly on the original Hunter-Slayer models, however, they diversified away from that years ago, to the point of not being pretty distinct.

    And although hugely influential in the setup of modern, generic Fantasy, Tolkien himself borrowed a great deal from mythology and legend and other Fantasy writings and can hardly be thought of as original.

    If there is anyone GW could be accused of ripping off for 40K, you need to go back and read some early 2000 AD, they might have a case as Rouge Trader is basically all influenced by the first 50 progs, Judge Dredd in particular.

    I have to re look, but here is a rough time line

    - Xenomorph painting/ sculpture design used by aliens film 1910 roughly, have to re look.
    - John Carter of Mars books 1920s the books forexample helped inspire Star Wars for example
    - 1950s Star Ship Troopers the book
    - 1970s D&D first table top game. Actually second since D&D used another company for the table top concept, but all rules ws D&D
    - 1986-1989 the film Aliens came out
    - 1989-1992 rouge trader/40 k

    Than everything else like halo, star craft, war craft, etc. came afterward.

    So the xenomorph design is still older than 40k.

  8. #8
    Initiate
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrksOrksOrks View Post
    If there is anyone GW could be accused of ripping off for 40K, you need to go back and read some early 2000 AD, they might have a case as Rouge Trader is basically all influenced by the first 50 progs, Judge Dredd in particular.
    not to mention nemesis the warlock

  9. #9
    Chapter-Master
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    Unlike some posters on the main page, I don't think GW getting costs for dragging their paperwork submissions, is game over. They would happily eat $1900 or whatever the fine was, to get a 1" advantage in this case.
    I'M RATHER DEFINATELY SURE FEMALE SPACE MARINES DEFINERTLEY DON'T EXIST.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrksOrksOrks View Post
    I think what you're trying to hint at is where infringing on copyright starts and where generic ideas in the public domain ends.
    That isn't what is at trial here, Chapter House made models for Games Workshop games but also used Games Workshops trademarks to market those products and used identical designs and art styles.

    Starship Troopers Space Marines are very different to Games Workshop Space Marines in all but name, the Tyranids aren't anything like the race of aliens in that novel and the Bugs of the film came after the Tyranids, the Xenomorphs of Alien were an obvious influence on the Tyranids though, particularly on the original Hunter-Slayer models, however, they diversified away from that years ago, to the point of not being pretty distinct.

    And although hugely influential in the setup of modern, generic Fantasy, Tolkien himself borrowed a great deal from mythology and legend and other Fantasy writings and can hardly be thought of as original.

    If there is anyone GW could be accused of ripping off for 40K, you need to go back and read some early 2000 AD, they might have a case as Rouge Trader is basically all influenced by the first 50 progs, Judge Dredd in particular.
    ill end your comment right here and now yes starship troopers are not space marines not even close but they ARE A DIRECT RIPOFF BY GW OF IG

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