IC w/infiltrate joining units

[DrWobbles]

This query seems to be derailing other threads so i'm posting it here.

The question is whether or not a unit without the special rule infiltrate can do so once joined by an IC with the rule. This was my response to another poster;

sigh...

nowhere does the word 'normally' show up. "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." that's the full sentence. Infiltrators are still 'deployed' just like other units only a little later.

"Being deployed in unit coherency" does not mean one unit must be deployed then deploy your independent character. they are deployed simultaneously and in unit coherency.

"while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

Does the IC have infiltrate? yes.

Can the IC begin the game already with a unit? yes.

Does a unit gain the infiltrators rule if at least one model has this rule? yes.

Can the unit infiltrate? YES.

[chicop76]

Are you answering your own question. Look up infiltrate it's plain as day. However it doesn't work the other way around. Like a farseer trying to infiltrate with pathfinders. Also scout works both ways.

Found this fun fact out with karnack and joining hounds with a herald of Khorne with a juggernought.

[Nabterayl]

If you're looking for confirmation that you have the rule correctly ... yes, you have the rule correctly. From the sound of it, you're dealing with a person or persons who is aware of the 5th edition debates on this question (when it was at best unclear whether you could join an IC to a unit before deploying either), but not aware of the 6th edition changes to deployment. Those changes eliminated what some used to consider a thorny question.

[Mkvenner]

Not to mention there is a precedent with ICs joining units in transports as well. Pg 121 does a good job of clearing some of this muck that people try and get others stuck in.

[Nabterayl]

Ah ... I think I understand the contrary argument now. It's the same as before - page 39 doesn't allow an IC to join a unit pre-game except in one of two ways: either it is deployed in coherency with the unit, or both are deployed in reserve. What we want, though, is a way for an IC (with Infiltrate) to join the unit neither in reserve (can't infiltrate once in reserve) nor on the table (can't infiltrate once placed on the table).

When I read through the book the first time I could have sworn you could simply declare that an IC had joined a unit pre-game, but I admit, I can't find anything that allows that.

[Tynskel]

Ah ... I think I understand the contrary argument now. It's the same as before - page 39 doesn't allow an IC to join a unit pre-game except in one of two ways: either it is deployed in coherency with the unit, or both are deployed in reserve. What we want, though, is a way for an IC (with Infiltrate) to join the unit neither in reserve (can't infiltrate once in reserve) nor on the table (can't infiltrate once placed on the table).

When I read through the book the first time I could have sworn you could simply declare that an IC had joined a unit pre-game, but I admit, I can't find anything that allows that.

I would say that the exception is in the Character's rules. The rule states that it can pass infiltrate to a unit it joins. The only way to make that work is to break the main rulebook rules, which the codex rule is clearly doing, and therefore is legal.

[Nabterayl]

The rule states that it can pass infiltrate to a unit it joins.

If we're talking about somebody like Shrike, I agree. I think that argument is much weaker when it comes to any old Independent Character who happens to have Infiltrate, but whose entry makes no mention of anything else (such as Shrike's "and models in his squad").

[chicop76]

If we're talking about somebody like Shrike, I agree. I think that argument is much weaker when it comes to any old Independent Character who happens to have Infiltrate, but whose entry makes no mention of anything else (such as Shrike's "and models in his squad").

How is it weak.

P8 38. Brb

" Units that contain at least on model with this special rule are deplyed last,... An Independant Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannont join a unit of Infiltrators during depolyment"

Which means and Ic with infiltrate that joins a unit gives that unit infiltrate and outflank. The draw back is that an IC can't infiltrate if he doesn't have infiltrate. Why is this still in question. Read your book. Answers a lot of questions if you read.

[Nabterayl]

My dear fellow, there's no need for veiled personal attacks. Page 38 establishes that an entire unit can infiltrate if a single member of that unit can, we quite agree. Page 39 establishes that an independent character who has "joined" a unit counts as a member of that unit, we quite agree. It follows, therefore, that if an independent character with Infiltrate can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment, the unit so joined could infiltrate. We quite agree.

Where, though, is the rule stating that an independent character can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment? I thought it was on page 39, but I don't see it. I agree with Tynskel that the ability to join a unit prior to that unit's deployment is implicit in the case of a character such as Shrike, whose See, But Remain Unseen rule seems to require it. I don't think page 38 requires it, though. Do you? If so, on what grounds?

[chicop76]

Pg 39. " an independent charactr can begin the game already with a unit, ... if the unit is in reserve... by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined

Pg. 121 Deploying Infiltrators under deployment.

I really don't see the problem 39 says you can deploy with them and infiltrating is under deployment. Same if you want to outflank.

There is no loop hole to get player x not to be able to infiltrate with shadowsun and harlequins for example.