1850 Daemons vs Chaos Marines

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i'm having that same debate currently as i try to work out which force should be my primary detachment lol.

[chicop76]

It's interesting that not many CSM models bring much to the table that Daemons can't do better. The only models and gear worth taking from CSM are:

Prince
Sorceror
Oblits
Nurgle Marines
Noise Marines
Helldrake

Burning Brand
Black Mace
And the tomb which grants an extra power a turn.

I honestly still do not know why people don't want to run noise marines. They can shoot pretty well and ignore cover. Thinking about it more they are great against Tau since they can mow down pathfinders and kroot really easily.

The main thing the daemons really lack is shooting that does not give fnp. That being said horror shooting with herald is no joke, they tend to wipe units. Against units like nurgle marines you will be forced to focus your fire power on single units. Horrors with herald can easily dish out 8 - 56 strength 6 shots that can re roll to hit. For most cases that is still enought to do the job. However a blob squad behind an aegis can be hard to deal with and even harder if the get FNP, although at strength 6 FNP isn't really an issue is it or strength 6 MC's like the bloodthirster kiling them.

The extra powers from a sorceror would be nice. At turn 3 that mode can have 6 powers which will be really helpful.

Honestly out of the CSM book theses are the units I would love to take.

Sorceror
Noise Marines
Oblits
Hell Drake

The problem with CSM allies and the reason you would go primary is for more helldrakes and noise marines as troops. It is the only real reason to go primary. You can go secondary, but tha forces you to take cultist or marines, fnp marines or t5 marines isn't bad options. Cultist besides being cheap isn't really needed since you can take daemons like plague bearers or pink horrors which can do what that unit can do, but better. You also have the HellDrake which having more than one is nice, however more drakes means less winged MCs. The flying MC's especially from daemons bring more to the table than the hell drake does. That being said the helldrake can easily cost almost 1/2 of what you are paying for a prince anyway

With how cheap a drake is a quick list might look like something like this.

Sorceror on Bike and +3 invulnerable with tomb
2 squads of noise marines
3 helldrakes
2 2 man squads of oblits
Lord of change
Hounds
Horrors or Deamonettes
Tzeentch Prince with Biomancy

The above probablly blows 1850, but that would probably be what I would field if I did CSM as a core. Now that you only have one army out there tat shuts down psychic powers half the time, taking a lot of psychic powers is the way to go. Also throw in gifts and grimore of true names.

For both Daemon MC's I would give them both Exhated gifts. The Tzeentch Prince would go for Iron Arm and be the true Name bearer, while the Loc will be the swiss army knife.

This is my thoughts on the Exhaulted for the Loc:
1. Riftbringer is always a must. If I can get this and get in combat it's game over.
2. Portal glpyph is my second priority. However it's situational. Fr example if I get big guns never tire for example. I may no need more scoring troops. Also Purge the alien this is rather bad to have in that type of game due to easy kill points. Riftbringer is differant since you can spwn 2d6+3 deamons which is rather helpful.
3. Rage and Rampage equals 10 attacks on the charge or 8 smash attacks on the charge.
4. Can get a free lesser reward which can be a weapon. + 2 strength anyone and strength 5 blast effects.
5. Wait I can get a +1 strength weapon and raise my ws, attacks, and I by d3. Ummm yes. This actually brings the Loc at a Bloodthirster level, not including psychic powers. Likethe fact a LoC can re roll to hit.
6. Doubly Blessed is another power which if you think about it gives you 2 wounds a turn. Had this on a Thirster with a +4 feel no pain, needless to say my army sat back and watched him defeat an army byhimself, not to mention the +3 invulnerable on the Thirster as well. The extra wound ability allowed me t wade through anything and by games end my Thirster had 4 wounds on him keeping in mind he received 9 - 11 failed wounds during the game.

The rest I tend to opt for gear. Powers like Doubly Blessed is situational deepending on what I am facing. Like example against grey knights it's not really effective if cought in combat. One failed save and equal instant death.

Now personally I rather have Daemons as the primary. After many games Fateweaver seems like a must. The two re rolls a game turn, re rolling on warp storm, re rolling true names, re rolling failed wounds, etc. Is very powerful. For his point tax he is worth it. The fact he really does make the warp storm table work for you is a very good reason to take him. Also he has saved key models by allowing them to have one re roll for their save. I have to say I can't complan.

The other HQ slot is hard to choose. You can take an LoC or Thirster which both or rather nice. You can go with a great unclen one which isn't too shaby.

My problem with the Unclean One is that you have to reward before you roll for psychic powers. This means you have no ideal if you will get fnp as a reward or psychic power. Out of most of the MC's going 2 greater and 1 lesser makes the most sence. The fact he is on the ground makes him more vulnerable. Also having just a +5 invulnerable makes him not too hard to kill off. You really need fnp on this model. However iron arm is boss which makes him t 9 on average and means only strengthh 6 or higher can hurt him. Keeep in mind that iron arm is a 50% chance with this guy. The main issue with this guy is luck. If you are lucky than he can be awesome or not lucky he can be better than ok. The other issue is he can't chase models and can't run. Which means more than likely you would want to ds him in, or have him slowly walk on the field. I debated using this guy lots of times.

Here is my issues with The Great Unclean One:

1. He is very slow and like the Avatar in 3rd-4th whole armies will just avoid the model than rather deal with it. Great for defense, but daemons are more offense than defense. Mono nurgle or heavy Tzeentch armies is where he can shine. At the end of the game he may have not engaged anything. It can take this guy 4 turns to get to the other side of the board. He can easily turn into a waste of points.
2. Going back to #1 means he is only really good for two things, supporting troops, or deep striking in the enemy deployment zone. This means of course you have to deep strike. If he is deep striking than supporting troops would be rather hard to do. Also any abilities done at the start of movement like iron arm or endurance can't be done. Which means he can be a sitting duck. Which forces deep striking in area terrain for a +3 cover save due to shrounding.
3. If you make him a unit buffer which most do than you just painted a big target on him. Give him true names and he wil be targeted. Against armies like Tau they can easily kill him. However if he has Iron Arm on him that may be harder to do, reason why I use snipers of some sort with my Tau. That being said ill prepared armies simply can't deal with him. If missles ar wounding on 4s through 6s and even assault cannons bounces off him than lol. Throw FNP, invulnerable saves, and +3 cover saves good luck. Not to mention if he has it will not die.
4. Did I mention slow, just wanted to say that again.

Ok. With all that being said. He can contest like no tommorow. In the scouring the Old Clean One can be an assest, put him on the 3 point objective or near the one one the enemies side and watch the enemy waste their time trying to kill him.even Grey Nights can have a hard time. If you are t8 they need rad grenades to wound you, t9 they nedd rad and hammer hand, t 10 they need dem hammers, unless they have a libby and another ic which they can hammerhad, rad, and the +1 strength from the libby.

Taking CSM as allies I suggest Helldrake and Oblits. I am not sold on the black mace prince.

Reasons why I don't feel the black Mace Prince.
1. 15% chance of doing nothing
2. No rewards
3. Only good against certain units. Where it runs into problems, which even applies to unit like the bloodthirster when it runs into units that can rend and have invlnerable saves. Harliquins and Daemonettes are really good examples of this, what is interesting both can have invisibility and prescience. Also both units lack grenades and storm shield terminators with thunder hammers is not something to take lightly. Grant it not many units can take these units. Also units like guard blobs are not a big threat since you can kill half the blob, before they can kill you, although with out Iron arm they can potentially kill a prince.

I favor daemon daemon princes due to the rewards. Not saying the black mace prince is bad. Just saying if I see it it is going to get shot to hell probably over a thirster, depends on which on is the easiest to kill. However if I took a prince from daemon and had it vs a prince from CSM and I get to pick powers and warlord traits my money is on the prince from daemons who can instant kill and can have fleshbane as well with a +4 feel no pain. Than again with iron arm in mind hatred wouldn't be bad.