On second thought this seemed more appropriate under background:Astartes Sexuality

[Nabterayl]

Yeah ... creepy to you, I guess? I mean, as my post shows, I don't agree with most of the OP's actual conclusions, but the thought of Astartes having sex, or even raping people, doesn't upset me more than the thought of Astartes being child traffickers. 40K isn't primarily a game I play with toy soldiers. To me, it's primarily a story setting, and I don't think about it any less seriously than I think about any other story setting. I can't imagine I'm the only one for whom that's true.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah i'd say the undercurrent of essentially abducting and mutating pre-pubescent boys is probably a whole lot darker than, "can they fall in love and have a family?".
But each to their own.

[Denzark]

The fact that the recruits are pre-pubescent is physiological rather than sexual - so less creepy in that light.

[Nabterayl]

Oh, sure. I don't think space marines regularly engage in child sexual abuse. Just child abuse.

[Denzark]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

LOL @ the concept of judging a fictional society. Like I said, I think we're over-thinking this.

[Nabterayl]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

Well ... yes and no. I mean, it's certainly healthy to assume that your society isn't the end-all be-all of morality. On the other hand, we can't just take every society at its word unless we're prepared to give up value judgments on societies altogether.

In the real world, I'm sure there are people who think that's a sensible approach, but for a fictional world, I think it's silly. Half the fun of 40K is judging its society based on our own values. I mean, by the standards of the Imperium, its society is pretty much the best of all possible worlds. There is nothing grim or dark about it. In fact, by the standards of the Imperium, thinking that it's grim or dark is a good way to damn your soul forever to Nurgle.

So ... yes, I agree that most of those parents, and probably most of the kids, would never even think of saying no when the chaplain says that their child has been chosen - and as we know, plenty of parents (and kids) actually voluntarily compete to be chosen, depending on the recruiting practices of the chapter in question. There's a sense, though, in which that makes it even creepier. At that point, it's just institutionalized child trafficking.

***

I ... hope this goes without saying, but of course, if you want to put it this way, the other half of the fun of 40K is taking the world according to its own values.

[Dlatrex]

Why do I suddenly think about life on Volg?

"This one, you like. Old Volg story for religious instruction. One day, dredge sinker scraping algae off mold filter. Think he maybe see pictograph of Blessed Emperor's throne on filter. Replace filter and take to Cleric. Cleric executes him for wasting mould filter. Such is life on Volg."

[Ravingbantha]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

it's not just 41st Millenium, that thought process would have existed for most of human history. it's only been the past 100-150 years in western society that we have declaired that a 15 year old is still considered a child. throughout most of history a 15 year old, would have already served in the military for 7 years, and some of that in a combat role.

[Nabterayl]

throughout most of history a 15 year old, would have already served in the military for 7 years, and some of that in a combat role.

I ... don't think that's true. For most of human history the idea of a "military" hasn't really been cognizable, and when it has been - from around 3,000 BC onward or so - I can't think of any societies that considered having eight year olds fighting in the army routine. Can you name a couple?

But the monstrous thing about space marine recruitment processes, to me, isn't tied to cultural ideas about when a person should "grow up." It's tied to the fact that the system is set up so that the parents - the ones with brains that are physiologically capable of critical thinking - either can't or won't say no, and the recruit is physiologically incapable of thinking about the decision with the same level of depth that an adult would be. By the time the kid has a brain that is fully capable of processing the question, he's a battle-brother, and if at that point (or indeed, prior to it) he says, "Hey guys ... thanks for the honor, but I don't want to be a space marine" his only option is to turn "renegade," at which point he will be hunted down and killed. You're allowed to choose the life of a space marine, but you aren't allowed to choose anything else.

Whether the eight- to ten-year olds in question are "children" or not in a cultural sense is really a sidebar to me. They're still slavers and kidnappers.