LEGALWATCH: Games Workshop vs Chapterhouse Verdict

[lattd]

Chapter house can I ask on what grounds you are appealing on? Have you even been given leave to appeal. And as one of the people who thought you came across as arrogant but do know what I am on about I will admit I'm surprised the judge directed the jury to give you so much.

[chapterhousestudios]

Chapter house can I ask on what grounds you are appealing on? Have you even been given leave to appeal. And as one of the people who thought you came across as arrogant but do know what I am on about I will admit I'm surprised the judge directed the jury to give you so much.

I dont think I should relay much more besides the fact we have many objections that were raised in court to base those appeals on.

All I can say is that the judge and jury seem to have disagreed with your opinion on what they should have done (and the judge doesnt make those decisions but the jury does based on instructions on the law and what the law defines plus the evidence provided).

FYI, there were doctors, wargamers and many educated people on the jury, it was a great mix of people.

[Caitsidhe]

Actually if Games Workshop suddenly dropped their game system people would just use the current one until another company came up with one we like better.

[Mike Dunford]

For those interested, I've downloaded the judgment from PACER, and have it up on Scribd. It's in five separate parts, because that's how it came off the official site.

[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425027/Games-Workshop-v-Chapterhouse-Judgment-part-1[/url]
[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425023/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-2[/url]
[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425024/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-3[/url]
[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425025/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-4[/url]
[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/151425026/Chapterhouse-vs-Games-Workshop-Judgment-part-5[/url]

The listing of who prevailed on which claims generally matches that in the proposed judgments linked earlier in the thread. However, it does not include the listing of which claims were found to be fair use and which were found to be totally non-infringing.

Looking through the listing, I don't think this is quite as clear-cut a victory for Chapterhouse as some have been claiming, particularly given the nature of the verdicts. (For example, the Ymgarl heads were found to not infringe GW's copyright, but Chapterhouse was found to have infringed both GW's "Genestealer" trademark and GW's "Ymgarl" trademark.)

In any event, the appeal will be interesting (and not just because there's about a 1/3 chance that Posner will be on the panel). I suspect that if Chapterhouse does appeal, GW will counter-appeal. But it will be a while before we get to that point. If I'm reading the docket correctly, GW will be requesting an injunction in the near future, and one or both sides will likely file Rule 59 motions at the trial court level before then. (IOW, there's still the potential for another year or two of this case.

ETA: Yes, I screwed up and reversed the names of the parties. My bad. I'm not fixing it because it seems to screw with the URLs on Scribd.

[Sainhann]

TBH I've never encountered anyone using non-GW models... But I only used to play with two or three people so...

I use M2 Bradley's for my Imperial Guard Chimeras.

[url]http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/919/415919_100616142413_tam35132.jpg[/url]

For the Cmd Section Chimeras I use Warriors.

[url]http://cdn2.sulitstatic.com/images/2013/0414/223515234_0927037092539489cabbdd3867e56f790058c5d1 c5d516684ce5f479.jpg[/url]

Yes they are bigger than the GW Chimeras but not by much and they do fit in nicely.

Plus if you catch a good deal on Ebay or at a local convention far cheaper.

I have gotten 1/35th models for $5 because the owner needed to sell them.

[Psychosplodge]

If someone wanted to use this model as their Thousand Son's sorceror, what would you do?

I honestly don't know.
I suppose if it's WYSIWG and only the odd character?
I don't think I'd want to play a one off game where every unit is "counts as" it'd probably be quite frustrating trying to keep track.


Mr. Dunford What is Rule 59? I'm only familiar with rule 34. 35 and 63...

[lattd]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion chapter house as the jury have found you to have infringed on some accounts which is what my opinion was.

[Caitsidhe]

It suffices to say that if his Lawyers (whose quality cannot be questioned) are willing to go for round two, still Pro Bono, it is because they think they are going to win. There is no point in debating this move to death as we did round one. We might as well just sit back and watch. Discussion only matters if we have something new to say.

[LostInTheDark]

What you saw as arrogant many others saw as sticking to my guns and the legal opinion of the counsel I hired. Trade places for a second, what would you do if some stranger kept telling you how to do your job with no experience behind those opinions? As it is, I didnt attack or insult those posters, I told them that I had legal advice, and they didnt know what they were talking about (in so many words).

The Jury in this case, seems to have given GW some "winners" to appease them, that is how our side saw it, and there was a large amount of issues that the courts caused pertaining to evidence that should have been in front of the jury as well. This is why we are appealing.

And Im sorry if you disagree, but this is how I feed my kid and myself, so yes, it is about making a living. Its not a hobby, its a way to sustain myself.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

For almost everyone the job they do is to provide for their family, no different to you. We are defined by the choices we make.

So you have legal advice saying that what you are doing is within the law and you have your business up and running, gaining some traction. You advertise your new releases on forums such as this.

The purpose of your business is to sell stuff. You start to receive a fair amount of negative commentary from strangers as you put it, some of who know nothing, some who provide an informed opinion.

This is the bit I don't understand. To step into your shoes, these people are your perspective customers, many of whom stated that they would not purchase from your business due the way you were presenting your products. If it was me I would have stepped back and looked at the root cause of the negativity and adjusted my business practice to try and not alginate my prospective customers.

Even if what you were doing was legal, and the results of the case dispute this, it doesn't necessarily make it the correct thing to do for a business to "stick to its guns" when this interferes with its base goal of maximising sales/revenue.

Especially when all but guaranteeing legal intervention from the company whose product your products are designed to complement. It seemed at the time and still does a strange risk to take when it’s your livelihood at stake unless it was a crusade to validate a strongly held view.

I am genuinely interested in why you didn't take the easier path that would have saved you the couple of years of stress and lost opportunities with your business. It’s not a risk I would have taken with my family.

Looking back now, would you have made the same choices?

[Caitsidhe]

This is the bit I don't understand. To step into your shoes, these people are your perspective customers, many of whom stated that they would not purchase from your business due the way you were presenting your products. If it was me I would have stepped back and looked at the root cause of the negativity and adjusted my business practice to try and not alginate my prospective customers.

I'm not Chapterhouse (nor affiliated with them) but I can't resist making a comment. Wouldn't it be a fair guess that most of the people who take the time to post negative about him weren't likely to ever buy from him in the first place? It has been shown that people who take the time to fill in polls, make calls, and write posts tend to fall outside the normal bell curve in response. They tend to be negative or angry about something, and more rarely very happy. The normal consumer (the ones most companies target) are neither. I suspect that Games Workshop is aware of this fact too which is why they ignore 99% of the comments that happen online no matter how angry (valid or invalid). You could be asking Games Workshop the same question you just asked Chapterhouse. Regardless, if you go back through commentary on the various Forums (not just this one) you will find at least one pro-Chapterhouse comment for every negative (if not more). I'm kind of in the middle myself. I will buy from ANYONE if the price and product is right. There are far more people who buy for THESE reasons than any other.

Even if what you were doing was legal, and the results of the case dispute this, it doesn't necessarily make it the correct thing to do for a business to "stick to its guns" when this interferes with its base goal of maximising sales/revenue.

What makes you think sticking to his guns hasn't already improved his sales? We are in the dark as to the pros and cons of Chapterhouse's behavior affecting his business. While I have no doubt the legal proceedings have been a pain in the butt, I expect the publicity and free exposure has had a certain effect. To use anecdotal evidence, I had never heard of Chapterhouse until this whole mess started. I went and looked and found some things I wanted to buy (and did). As a result, at least some of Chapterhouse's sales in the last two years came directly as a byproduct of this situation. It is very unlikely I am the only person falling under that grouping.

Especially when all but guaranteeing legal intervention from the company whose product your products are designed to complement. It seemed at the time and still does a strange risk to take when it’s your livelihood at stake unless it was a crusade to validate a strongly held view.

It seems strange to you because you don't have the facts. I expect that the numbers on his end are just fine because judging by his comments, he seems a pretty cautious monetary fella. He doesn't take risk either. The costs of his product aren't bargain basement. They are cheaper than Games Workshop because I can target what I want, but that doesn't make them cheap. Chapterhouse seems to make very tactical, methodical steps (from my perspective) economically, and that kind of approach tends (in my experience) to go through every aspect of a business when true. All we can do is guess, but I suspect Chapterhouse is doing just fine.

I am genuinely interested in why you didn't take the easier path that would have saved you the couple of years of stress and lost opportunities with your business. It’s not a risk I would have taken with my family.

Again, I doubt it has equated to lost opportunities, since conventional business wisdom says it probably opened up far more. Your other comments there are kind of creepy. They come strangely close to a passive-aggressive threat. I know they are not since you are not affilitated with Games Workshop, but they sound a lot like comments the bad guy in a movie makes.

"I don't know about you bub... but if it were me.... I dont' know if I would have put my family at risk like that." It only sounds funny and ominous following the context that he means to appeal. All that humor aside, I'm curious about your curiosity. It doesn't sound genuine. It sounds like passive-aggressive garbage complete with leading questions and a very clear moral you wish to espouse.