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  1. #101

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    I rather think we need something to lighten the mood, right or wrong the decision has been made and as is usual we as consumers can do nothing but grumble and hope to christ the consequences do not come to affect us in anyway negative.



    There, now who wants pizza?

  2. #102

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    I am actually glad the verdict came down as it did...chs needed to be reigned in and gw needed a slap upside the head for being stupid and claiming crap they didnt even own

    the verdict was the correct one here.. i know those of you in the UK and Europe dont see it that way but thats because your locality has differing laws then we do here...but the thing is quit simple GW does business here in the US, they are bound by US law just as they are also bound by German French or English law there...

    no one lost per se... gw just didnt get the win they felt they were owed.. maybe thats a bit harsh as i am very happy when gw gets pounded.. but i dont feel they should be harmed by companies doing them wrong either

    now bitz companies can make the parst that people want and gw can go back and fix what they didnt own and either gain ownership of what they actually created and didnt "use" from others and in the long run having options is never a bad thing

    just my op

  3. #103

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    Evil & Chaos it's standard procedure to ask for destruction of infringing items and the ability to make them. Why would any company allow you to keep the ability to infringe when you just spent a hefty sum on suing them for making your goods.

  4. #104

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    General process question about the US appeals process.

    From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

    Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?
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  5. #105
    Veteran-Sergeant
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    El Paso, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    General process question about the US appeals process.

    From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

    Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?
    Either side can appeal a ruling. That would not necessarily mean a new trial. A higher court could review the findings and adjust the awards or rulings. For an all new trial, a big time failure of law would be required. Especially in a civil trial. In a new trial new evidence could be limited by the judge but arguments could be different (again if the judge approves). In a review appeal, the judge will only look at transcripts of the previous trial so nothing new there. In the US system, judges have huge power in the appeal process. There are nuances I am missing. The differences between criminal proceedings and civil proceedings are pretty profound. It also differs State to State. This trial was in Illinois right? Oh and I apologize for my earlier post stating that Victoria Miniatures was a UK company. My bad.

  6. #106
    Veteran-Sergeant
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    May 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by lattd View Post
    Evil & Chaos it's standard procedure to ask for destruction of infringing items and the ability to make them. Why would any company allow you to keep the ability to infringe when you just spent a hefty sum on suing them for making your goods.
    He was responding to a post that stated that the C and D did not demand that the entire operation be dismantled and destroyed. It clearly did.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by templarboy View Post
    Either side can appeal a ruling. That would not necessarily mean a new trial. A higher court could review the findings and adjust the awards or rulings. For an all new trial, a big time failure of law would be required. Especially in a civil trial. In a new trial new evidence could be limited by the judge but arguments could be different (again if the judge approves). In a review appeal, the judge will only look at transcripts of the previous trial so nothing new there. In the US system, judges have huge power in the appeal process. There are nuances I am missing. The differences between criminal proceedings and civil proceedings are pretty profound. It also differs State to State. This trial was in Illinois right? Oh and I apologize for my earlier post stating that Victoria Miniatures was a UK company. My bad.
    Cool. Cheers dude!

    And in a Columbo stylee.... Just one more thing... Has anyone ever taken a case to appeal, and managed to make things worse for themselves? So in this instance, GW appealing, and all findings in their favour being overturned, or CH appealing and the Judge ruling the penalty had been unfairly lenient?
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  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    General process question about the US appeals process.

    From reading this thread, I see mention of the possibility of either side calling an appeal.

    Now, whether this happens or not, in terms of general process, how does it work? Is the whole trial resat? Can the parties involve bring further evidence? Do they have to use the same arguments?
    In a civil trial you're allowed to appeal orders and rulings of the judge, but that's it. You cannot appeal the verdict of a jury in a civil trial. In a federal court (which this was), in general you have 30 days to appeal the order or ruling of the judge to which you object.

    When you appeal, the next highest court in the system (in this case, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals) either turns you down because they don't want to bother with your question, or they accept it. In a few sorts of cases they have to hear your appeal, but I don't believe this is one of those cases. Assuming they decide to hear your appeal, the original trial goes on hiatus until the appeal is finished.

    At the appeal, new evidence is not permitted unless it didn't exist at the time of the trial. You can't go to the appellate court and say, "This evidence is super important but we totally forgot to bring it up at trial." The appeals process is not a way to undo your own incompetence. You can introduce new evidence if there was literally no way for you to bring it up at trial, but that is very rare. Similarly, you are not allowed to introduce new theories or arguments. If a really good argument occurs to you on appeal that did not occur to you at trial, it is too late to bring it up. The appeals court is not there to correct your incompetence.

    The point of an appeal is to correct an erroneous decision the judge made. This means the appellant is allowed to argue why the judge got the law wrong in the ruling or order being appealed, and the appellee is allowed to argue that the judge got the law right and the original ruling or order should stand. Note that these are both purely legal points. The appeals court will make its decision, and at that point one of two things can happen. The side that lost the appeal can appeal to the next highest court in the applicable court system (in this case the Supreme Court of the United States), or the trial can resume with the ruling or order in question modified however the appeals court dictated.

    Depending on the ruling or order in question, the appeals court might simply enter a new ruling or order. For instance, the judge might rule that evidence X is inadmissible. If that ruling was appealed, the appellate court might simply order evidence X to be admitted. The appellate court is also allowed to say, "The trial judge ruled that X was inadmissible because he thought the rule was Y. We are correcting the judge that the rule is Z. The judge is ordered to make a new decision based on rule Z." Based on rule Z, the trial judge might admit the evidence, but he is also allowed to exclude the evidence if he decides that it is inadmissible even under rule Z. This freedom is another reflection of the fact that appellate courts are there only to correct judges. They are not there to decide cases, matters of fact, or hear evidence - so you can imagine that in many cases an appellate court will face a complicated question and have to say, "Look guys, unless I see all the facts that the litigants have dredged up, I have no f*cking clue what the real-world answer is. And frankly, it would take too long for me to review all of your facts, and it is not my job. I can tell you the rule is Z. Go forth and apply rule Z to your actual situation."

    What does all this mean? It means that the jury verdict stands. That's the end of the line. It also means that any decisions made by the judge that are more than 30 days old stand. They could have been appealed, and they weren't (if you go to an appeals court and say, "Look, we really meant to appeal, but we didn't do it in the 30 days because <insert totally valid and convincing reasons here>," the appeals court will say, "It is not our fault that you are f*cking incompetent. You had 30 days. Go home and stop bothering us."). There are still some decisions by the judge to come, though. For instance, if the judge rules that CHS has to pay GW's attorneys fees (which I am 99% sure he will not), CHS could appeal that - that's a ruling that the judge made, not the jury.

    People often hear (or even report) about civil cases that are decided at the appellate level. Strictly speaking, that's only kind of what happens. You may remember that back in April both sides moved for summary judgment. Summary judgment is a procedure by which the judge decides aspects of the trial (or even the whole thing) without taking up a jury's time. When might this happen, you ask? The answer is when there are no questions of fact. Remember that the reason we have juries in the first place is because we think a bunch of ordinary people are better than a single legal expert at deciding whose version of the facts is correct. If there are no disputed facts, there's no need for a jury. For instance, suppose you punch me on the street one day. I sue you for battery. At the court, you and I actually agree on everything that happened. We both agree that I called your mother a wh*re. We both agree that you politely asked me to apologize. We both agree that I told you to f*ck off and called your mother a wh*re again. We both agree that you then punched me in the gut. The only thing we disagree about is whether you owe me money for punching me.

    In that sort of case, there's nothing for a jury to do. All the facts are agreed upon. The only question is a legal one - is punching somebody in those circumstances battery, or is it not? And that is a question for a single legal expert, not a bunch of laymen. Alternatively, suppose I deny everything. I could still say, "But Your Honor, even if I did all those things, Mr. Mystery still would owe me money for punching me." If the judge agrees with me as a matter of law, then we don't actually need to bother a jury. If you owe me money whether I said all those things or not, then it doesn't actually matter whether I said them or didn't.

    Back in April, this is exactly what both sides did. Each of them said, "Your Honor, even if you accept my opponent's version of the facts, don't you agree that I still win as a matter of law?" This happens in every civil trial, mostly because there's no reason not to try for an early win. As often happens, the judge agreed with CHS on some points and with GW on some points, and disagreed with both of them on some points (this latter category are the things the jury was asked to do decide).

    But what if the judge had agreed completely with one side or the other - or agreed so much with one side that that side effectively won? That happens sometimes. And that is the point at which most of the sexy civil appeals you hear about occur. One side totally sweeps the other at summary judgment, winning the case (or near enough as makes no difference). Case is over ...

    ... except that it wasn't a jury that finished the case. It was a ruling made by a judge, and those can be appealed. To go back to the battery example, suppose the court grants me summary judgment - it says that it is not a defense to the tort of battery that you were provoked, and therefore you owe me money despite what I said about your mom. Now, if the judge is right, all the appeals in the world will do you no good. The appeals court will just tell you, "The trial court was totally correct about what constitutes battery. Pay Nab his money." But what if the judge is wrong? What if it does matter whether you were provoked? Then an appeal might do you some good. The appeals court will say, "No, if you were provoked, that's not battery at all. You don't owe Nab a cent." The media will undoubtedly report this as you winning on appeal.

    And you did win on appeal - but under fairly special circumstances. I was able to win at summary judgment (pre-jury) because we agreed upon the facts. You were able to reverse my victory because we agreed upon the facts. In this case, there were substantial disagreements about the facts, so we called in our fact-finding experts - a jury. An appeals court will not (indeed, is not allowed to) question the facts as the jury decided them, any more than the trial judge will.
    Last edited by Nabterayl; 06-15-2013 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlift View Post
    News just in, GW is now buying Chapter house studios. Just joking. Would be quite funny though
    This is what GW should have done in the first place, IMHO. Going to trial was simply stupidly short-sighted.

  10. #110

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    Just got back from being gone all day: any word on Final Judgement yet or are we still kicking about waiting for that news?

 

 
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