The Black Mace vs. Multi-Wound Models

[mikehardez]

Hello everyone,

I'm going to be using a Black Mace wielding DP in an upcoming game, but I need some clarification on how the "save vs. removal as casualty" effect works vs. multi-wound models.

Generally speaking, when something is limited to a single test regardless of number of wounds caused, it uses the wording "one or more unsaved wounds" to make this clear. For example, a unit only takes one pinning test regardless of how many unsaved wounds it takes vs. pinning weapons. Even the AoE effect of the Black Mace uses this wording.

How ever, the "single-target" effect, if you will, states:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a Toughness test."

To me, this implies that you take a toughness test for each wound suffered from direct clubbing. For example, if a Wraithknight takes 3 Black Mace wounds, he would take 3 toughness tests. If he rolls a 6 on any of them, he's removed as a casualty.

However, I could see opponents protesting to this, as the rules don't explicitly state "for each unsaved wound suffered" or something along those lines. Power-wise, it doesn't seem broken given how relatively common instant death is, but it does go through Eternal Warrior, which is fairly unique; I can see both sides of the argument as being valid.

My main argument for multiple tests is that it doesn't state "one or more unsaved wounds" like it does for the AoE portion of the ability. Because that standard phrase is present for another part of the Black Mace's rules, I have a hard time believing this could be an oversight.

Can anyone provide any other solid evidence, for or against? For reference, the entry is on page 69 of the CSM codex.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[isotope99]

I would play it as just one test as the wounds happen essentially simultaneously at the same initiative step but I don't have a concrete proof if it's not in the FAQ.

Good job the GW rules team aren't responsible for writing actual laws I can well believe it is an oversight.

[Asuryan]

I would say only once because it doesn't say for every wound. Where as the Dire sword from Eldar does state for each unsaved wound.

[Melon-neko]

I think it has to be for every wound. Remember that as per the rules, you allocate wounds 1 at a time, make your save(s), then move on to the next wound in the wound pool. We often accelerate the process because we don't want the game to last 5 hours >.>

The way it reads to me is you allocate the wound, make a save is possible, make FnP if possible, then if the wound is unsaved, make a toughness test for the black mace.
Move on to the next wound in the wound pool.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the notion that you must take the test (at least for now) for each unsaved wound. The write up is VERY specific. If you suffer an unsaved wound (the moment you don't save) you take the test. Then you go to the next wound, and so on. They may add this to the Faq later, but the RAW is pretty clear.

[DarkLink]

Yes, it's one test per wound. The condition to forcing a test is taking a wound, singular. Taking one wound triggers one test, and once you take that one test the conditions are satisfied, but that leaves any additional wounds unresolved. Thus, you must take tests until you've satisfied the requirements for each wound.

[jifel]

I would say that no matter how many wounds, its one test. I'm basing this off the precedent of Tyranid Boneswords, which do the exact same thing except cause a Leadership instead of a Toughness test.

[DarkLink]

Boneswords do not do the exact same thing. Boneswords specify "one or more unsaved wounds". The Black Mace does not. That's a very important difference.

[Aramel]

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a Toughness test."

Blows struck at the same initiative step are simultaneous right? That means that all wounds are inflicted at the same time. Therefore you would at most take one test per model, per combat phase. The only reason we roll saves one after another is to represent the new wound allocation rules. If it were otherwise it would be clearly stated that the test must be taken for each and every wound.

However, feel no pain is not a save, so I assumes the mace bypasses it?

[Patrick Boyle]

I think it has to be for every wound. Remember that as per the rules, you allocate wounds 1 at a time, make your save(s), then move on to the next wound in the wound pool. We often accelerate the process because we don't want the game to last 5 hours >.>

The way it reads to me is you allocate the wound, make a save is possible, make FnP if possible, then if the wound is unsaved, make a toughness test for the black mace.
Move on to the next wound in the wound pool.

Don't forget, Feel No Pain is not a save, as soon as you've failed your Armor/Cover/Invul save, you have suffered an unsaved wound regardless of the result of your Feel No Pain roll. Reference the BRB faq on when Force Weapons are activated in regard to Feel No Pain for precedent.