The Black Mace vs. Multi-Wound Models

[Tynskel]

GW always say that they write their rules loosely because they expect them to be used in friendly games; however, there is nothing likely to take the chumminess out of a friendly game faster than a set of loosely written rules. This is one reason why I've given up on 40k

Uhhhh... Why are you on this forum..

[Magpie]

I don't think that's true. As page 35 says, upon a successful FNP roll, "the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

FNP converts unsaved wounds to saved wounds.

Also on Page 35 is "this is not a saving throw" it's not a save but it is treated as if it was one.
i.e. it has all the benefits of a save but it is still an unsaved wound.

[Nabterayl]

Why do you think that it's still treated as an unsaved wound despite the fact that we are told to "treat it as having been saved?"

[Caitsidhe]

I suspect because Games Workshop, par for the course, has used verbage that is inconclusive. I can see both sides of the argument. My view is that FNP is not a saved wound, but rather you get to ignore the wound as if you saved. The Black Mace should still trigger. Even so, I think there is a basis on the poor wording to argue it the other way too.

[DarkLink]

If you ignore the wound, then you didn't suffer an unsaved wound to trigger the test.

[RTFRB]

Is there a limit on the number of same characteristic tests that can occur in a phase? I vaguely recall a bit about having only to pass leadership once no matter how many causes. ( pinning, maybe) I'm wondering if some wording exists that states something similiar for all characteristic tests. Apologies - no rule book at work. In other words, having passed the toughness test once would count for all wounds caused.

[Caitsidhe]

If you ignore the wound, then you didn't suffer an unsaved wound to trigger the test.

I would agree with you except that the wording betrays it. FNP doesn't trigger until you suffered an unsaved wound. The wording on the Black Mace says you IMMEDIATELY take that Test. This would happen before the FNP even, bypassing any real argument like you are making. If you fail it you are gone. I suppose if it was the FNP Player's turn he could argue he/she gets to set resolution priority if the things happen at the same time, but nothing about FNP says "immediately" so again I'm not sure you would get to take priorty.

Getting to ignore the effect doesn't change the fact that you had to suffer the unsaved wound to even get the FNP roll. All it takes to trigger the Black Mace is suffering the intial effect.

[Anakzar]

From the wording here is how I would work it out.

First the target takes a wound and fails its save. Black mace forces the toughness test, if failed target dies. If target passes the toughness test, then target takes a FNP to ignore the unsaved wound.

[Tynskel]

I would agree with you except that the wording betrays it. FNP doesn't trigger until you suffered an unsaved wound. The wording on the Black Mace says you IMMEDIATELY take that Test. This would happen before the FNP even, bypassing any real argument like you are making. If you fail it you are gone. I suppose if it was the FNP Player's turn he could argue he/she gets to set resolution priority if the things happen at the same time, but nothing about FNP says "immediately" so again I'm not sure you would get to take priorty.

Getting to ignore the effect doesn't change the fact that you had to suffer the unsaved wound to even get the FNP roll. All it takes to trigger the Black Mace is suffering the intial effect.

The whole point of FNP is to ignore the wound. It seems quite odd to roll the Black Mace, then be able to ignore the wound. It seems to be that the Black Mace is contingent on failure of a wound, and that should be after all attempts to prevent the wound have been exhausted.

Think of it this way: the Black Mace is *not* Instant Death, it is remove model, contingent upon failed save, contingent upon a toughness test. If you fail the toughness test, then pass FNP, then what happens? Nothing, because you technically never failed the save.

The Black Mace is *not* directly conflicting with the rulebook here. All it says is that you must have failed the save. There's no reason to assume, even with the word 'immediately' that you do not have the opportunity to exhaust all forms of attempts to prevent the wound.

[Caitsidhe]

The whole point of FNP is to ignore the wound. It seems quite odd to roll the Black Mace, then be able to ignore the wound. It seems to be that the Black Mace is contingent on failure of a wound, and that should be after all attempts to prevent the wound have been exhausted.

Think of it this way: the Black Mace is *not* Instant Death, it is remove model, contingent upon failed save, contingent upon a toughness test. If you fail the toughness test, then pass FNP, then what happens? Nothing, because you technically never failed the save.

The Black Mace is *not* directly conflicting with the rulebook here. All it says is that you must have failed the save. There's no reason to assume, even with the word 'immediately' that you do not have the opportunity to exhaust all forms of attempts to prevent the wound.

I'm not arguing about the "spirit of the rule." I have no idea what Games Workshop intends here. I'm simply saying the RAW is clear. Even that aside, we aren't talking about a wound here. We are talking about a triggered effect. FNP ignores the wound, but it does not get to ignore the triggered effect. We could liken it, if you want to talk about the spirit of the rules, to...

A Space Marine is splashed with acid. The person with FNP might ignore the effects of teh wound he suffered because he doesn't feel it, but that doesn't stop the "triggered effect" from kicking in. Perhaps his armor save is reduced or eliminated. You get the idea. I think trying to guess the RAI is just a pain in the butt and is always going to fall to bias. For that reason I'll be glad if/when they get around to giving us more details on FNP interactions with the Black Mace.

Until that time, FNP won't save you from it.