Hexrifle vs Feel no Pain!

[Tynskel]

Is it negating or killing before FNP comes into effect. I still think it's killing th model, before FNP is even an issue. I do not think it's negating simply due to the model being dead before FNP kicks in.

No, because you cannot negate Feel No Pain *unless* you have instant death. You *always* get your Feel No Pain roll.

[Daemonette666]

I have sent off an email to my (Australia) local GW hobby rules and info email service. They have only one person manning the email service, and Mitch is fairly prompt with his replies. Now I know many of you will not recognise his reply as cannon and legal, so I requested that he get the head office to release an Errata/FAQ to cover both the Black Mace and the Hexrifle and how FNP is used in relation to stopping their trigger mechanism, or whether they are classified as instant death if the characteristic test is failed by the target model.

I gave all points of view, - mine, Magpies, Chicop, Tynksel and RL68s. I gave reasons why both sides of the debate thought their view has precedence, and showed the relevant rules people quoted to support their arguments.

Hopefully this will prompt GW to release a FAQ.

[chicop76]

I have sent off an email to my (Australia) local GW hobby rules and info email service. They have only one person manning the email service, and Mitch is fairly prompt with his replies. Now I know many of you will not recognise his reply as cannon and legal, so I requested that he get the head office to release an Errata/FAQ to cover both the Black Mace and the Hexrifle and how FNP is used in relation to stopping their trigger mechanism, or whether they are classified as instant death if the characteristic test is failed by the target model.

I gave all points of view, - mine, Magpies, Chicop, Tynksel and RL68s. I gave reasons why both sides of the debate thought their view has precedence, and showed the relevant rules people quoted to support their arguments.

Hopefully this will prompt GW to release a FAQ.

It's not just the Mace and Rifle. It's a tone of effects that do similiar things. You should had asked for a Faq for FNP in geral with realtion to effectsthat happen on unsaved wounds that remove models from play.

@ T killing before fnp goes into effect is not negating. It is just happening before fnp goes into effect that's all.

[chicop76]

No, because you cannot negate Feel No Pain *unless* you have instant death. You *always* get your Feel No Pain roll.

Did you even read what you qouted. It's like you agreeing with what I said.

[rle68]

I have sent off an email to my (Australia) local GW hobby rules and info email service. They have only one person manning the email service, and Mitch is fairly prompt with his replies. Now I know many of you will not recognise his reply as cannon and legal, so I requested that he get the head office to release an Errata/FAQ to cover both the Black Mace and the Hexrifle and how FNP is used in relation to stopping their trigger mechanism, or whether they are classified as instant death if the characteristic test is failed by the target model.

I gave all points of view, - mine, Magpies, Chicop, Tynksel and RL68s. I gave reasons why both sides of the debate thought their view has precedence, and showed the relevant rules people quoted to support their arguments.

Hopefully this will prompt GW to release a FAQ.

i applaud the effort thank you

[Daemonette666]

Is it negating or killing before FNP comes into effect. I still think it's killing th model, before FNP is even an issue. I do not think it's negating simply due to the model being dead before FNP kicks in.

Feel no Pain comes into affect once the model has suffered an unsaved Wound. Even if the unsaved wound killed the model such as would be the case with a one wound model, the FNP roll can still be made.

FNP can only be stopped from attempting to cancel the unsaved Wound if the weapon has the Instant Death rule mentioned in its profile, rules or its strength is double the targets modified toughness. Alternately the model using the weapon that caused the unsaved Wound may have a strength that is double the targets modified toughness (for close combat attacks), or it has a special rule that makes its attacks instant death with the type of weapon that caused the unsaved Wound - such as any weapon, only melee weapons or only ranged weapons.

If the model needs a characteristic test to activate the weapon and make it Instant death, then this roll is done first, and only if successful will the FNP roll not be attempted. Otherwise you get to roll the FNP roll. If successful the FNP roll will negate the unsaved wound, and stop the trigger for characteristic tests that require an unsaved Wound in order to make another effect occur.

Some of the things that require the unsaved Wound in order for them to activate are: combat resolution - FNP will reduce the total number of unsaved wounds caused that round of Close combat; pinning - if FNP cancels out all unsaved wounds on a unit that does not ignore morale, the unit will not have to take a pinning test. Obviously those units the ignore morale such as fearless units will not have to worry about pinning; the wounds test for the Hexrifle, and the toughness test for each unsaved wound for the Black Mace.

Do not worry about my mentioning how FNP works with other tests that are triggered by a model/unit suffering an unsaved Wound - which comes first FNP or the other dice roll. I specifically mentioned that to the GW hobby help email service. I covered the things each side used to support their views, ranging from the player whose turn it is determining which goes first, force weapons being used as a precedence to show that weapons with Instant Death negate FNP from even attempting a dice roll for each unsaved Wound. I covered how some thought the Hexrifle and Black mace using the term "remove from play" meant they were Instant Death, and how others said they were not because they did not specifically have the words "Instant Death" in their rules or profile. I even covered the use of the word "Instantly" used in the Black Mace, and then mentioned that the pinning test also has the word "Instantly" in its description.

So as you can see I covered what each of the people who debated (argued) the most on this subject, had said.

I also mentioned something that I do not think we discussed here or in the Black Mace's thread.
- Does the Black mace still get to cause the additional damage, even if it kills off one wound models only?
- Do those one wound models get to take their FNP roll to negate the unsaved wound and stop the additional effects of the Black Mace?
- If FNP negates all the unsaved Wounds caused by the Black Mace, do the models in 3" of the bearer still have to take the additional test?
- If one or more wounds is caused by the Black Mace in close combat, do enemy models in 3" of the bearer of the Black mace that fail their toughness test get to use FNP to cancel the follow-up wounds they suffer, even though no saves of any kind are allowed?

I thought this would be a decent and valid set of questions to ask as well.

[z3r05k1ll]

Not sure why this is such a hot debate. The order of operations for "things that go off at the same time" has always been at the descretion of the controlling player, however nothing in that order has ever been able to prevent the effect of another action happening "at the same time". The primary precedent here being assault where both sides have models swinging at the same initiative, no models are removed (for dice purposes, i know we all just pick the models up anyways) until all models have taken their actions. So with that in mind... an unsaved wound from a hexrifle applied to a model with feel no pain would have two effects happening at the same time. you could roll them both, and if both successful the result on the model would go from "loses one wound" to just "removed from play".

[Magpie]

The order of operations for "things that go off at the same time" has always been at the descretion of the controlling player, however nothing in that order has ever been able to prevent the effect of another action happening "at the same time".

There are quite a few things that mess with that now tho'. Challenges v Mind Shackle Scarabs is one, that does show that "same time" events do follow an order and can have different results depending on that order.