Astartes Tactics

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Before we go anywhere if you dont know anything about real world tactics, take a look at [url="http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/EIB/EIB_Related_Battle_Drills/index.shtml"]Battle Drills[/url].

In the 1,000 Marine Myth there is an argument raging about whether or not Scouts are indeed Marines and there role as a Reconnaissance Force. I believe that Scouts are less recon focused, and indeed more focused on learning all types of warfare. A scout would learn every conceivable battle drill, strategy, and operation from the phalanx and double envelopment to clearing rooms and the intricacies of successfully executing an airborne operation. They spend all their time in training becoming masters of conventional warfare and executing conventional missions on the ground, like the Imperial Guard to an extent.

I use the term [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_warfare"]conventional warfare[/url] to show that a Space Marine Scout for all intents and purposes is simply a highly trained, expert infantryman. The highest level of the non-special forces designations in the Imperium. A scout is better equipped, more motivated, and better trained (mentally and physically) than any other Imperial trooper (this does not include the specialists or those tampered with).

A Space Marine IS [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_warfare"]unconventional warfare[/url]. For those who wont click the link:

Unconventional warfare is an attempt to achieve military victory through acquiescence, capitulation, or clandestine support for one side of an existing conflict.

A Space Marine is fear, to unleash him upon the enemy is to unleash the enemies darkest nightmares. Every citizen in the Imperium fears and loves the angels of the Emperor and whenever they become traitors, the fiery contrails from they sky is the VERY last thing they wanted to see.

But, we know the psychological effect of the Space Marines, but what about their tactics? What makes them so scary?


First, we need to look at what makes a Space Marine so effective. He is clad in the best armor available, armor so complex it is a vehicle and weapon in its own right. He is gifted with the most damage producing standard infantry weapon available in the Imperium. His mind is as sharp as a razors edge, a regular marine is able to grasp strategy on the same level as any Imperial Guard commander. But what makes him so deadly?

It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics. To clear a room you need a door or an opening right? What if the door has no opening? In the Space Wolves Short Story in Tales of Heresy, the Space Wolves used breaching charges and the weight of their armor to keep up the momentum of the attack, blowing into room after room, totally circumventing the Dark Eldar defenses arranged to fight warriors coming through a door or portal. One may argue that normal IG and so on can do the same, and I would say you are right, but for Space Marines it takes less effort. A Guardsmen cannot punch through the wall and rip it down, a Sororitas cannot run straight through solid reinforced cinderblock/ferrocrete without being pinned in the rubble like an Astartes. And that is just one example.

A Space Marine's armor allows him to ignore most things a guardsmen must take account for. Like small arms fire. If assaulting a fixed position a marine can simply sprint at it outside the arc of fire of the weapon. A Space Marine is fast enough that he could easily reach the position before the crew has rotated, and if the weapon is of sufficient calibre, it really wont matter if the turn fast enough . Obviously this is all dependent on the scenario and terrain and the list goes on, but my point is made. A Space Marine doesn't have to do buddy team rushes, or search for cover. He IS his own cover. He doesn't need concealment, he doesn't need camo, because if he see you, you are dead.

This of course does not mean a Space Marine is invulnerable, quite the opposite. A Space Marine can essential turn the battlefield into something of an obstacle course. His goal isn't to secure an objective, in a traditional sense, it is to destroy all the enemy. THEN secure whatever you were looking for. A Space Marine typically isn't employed to do standard operations. He is a Juggernaught, an enemy eraser. Where you have enemies, he removes them. Where you need things reinforced, send in the guard.

The best way to deal with a Space Marine is Ordnance. His armor makes him powerful, so you take away that advantage. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile, Plasma, Cannons, Lascannons, Sharp Talons, bio-acid, and all make nice power armor crackers. In a universe as deadly as 40K power armor is hardly god mode, but in a basic infantry match up, it is unmatched.

Now add in 9 more Space Marines. If one space marine is an enemy eraser, a single squad is capable of devastation on a whole new level. When references are made to Space Marines taking over whole worlds with single battle companies, it isn't a stretch to see how they do it. They wage [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War"]Total War[/url], population centers are bombarded from orbit, industrial centers are ruined, crops burned, and God help those poor designated military targets. While the population centers feel the cold and impersonal wrath of the Emperor (which happens to be quite warm), the military targets get a special touch. The Space Marines go down, and PERSONALLY show the traitors/rebels/orks the error of their ways. Because nothing teaches better than being shown just what's wrong with what your doing .

The tactics of a Space Marine are less grounded in reality, and instead based upon fear and the enemy defeating itself mentally. In battle a Space Marine is really just an exterminator, battle drills are one of the many ways a space marine can choose to kill his enemy*. He just kills, that is all he does. He is good for NOTHING else. Even Marneus Calgar, ruler of the most prosperous worlds in the entire Imperium is nothing more than an exterminator. Without war space marines are nothing.




*When Fighting against traitor marines, real world tactics would have to be adopted, and the space marine would have to stop 'playing around'. A Chaos Marine effectively negates anything a Space Marine brings to the table, and will often be better than a regular marine in most everything, due to his long and tough life in the EoT.






Some of this is for one of the articles I am currently working on, but I sincerely hope this sparks some meaningful and fierce debate over how space marines would actually fight.

[Kefka]

Very interesting M2C (can I call you that?)
Well thought out, and what I already had in mind for what a space marine is. A walking tank. Ignoring most firearms as his power armour takes the brunt of it, being able to focus on taking out his targets. He is also highly trained, a century of training and battles will do that. GW fluff often says "Give me 100 space marines, failing that, give me 10,000 regular soldiers." Which points to that fact that a single marine should be equivalent to 100 regular soldiers.
This super powered, highly indestructible force of the imperium uses different tactics because of how they are built. You worry less about getting to the enemy, and more on what to do when you get there. So the route is made shorter, thus, drop pods. Marines use these devices a fair deal, often deploying their whole battle line amongst the enemy. Could you think of another force capable of doing this? (CSM not withstanding) No. Cause SM power armour will protect them, and their powerful guns make killing easy. SM are also far more collected in intense fire-fights, so the sudden assault of gunfire and enemy is easier for them to handle.

I am sure there is more to be said, but I am a military noob...

[Melissia]

One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

[the one]

I agree with melissia. Marine may be badass sometimes but they're definatly not invinsible. But would would a marine be arrogant so to think so, abandonning all form of tatics and just walk though enemy fire shotting their bolters? No. But desipt all this marines die, no matter power armour, cover, biotics and any other way to cheat death in the 41st millnium. If marines were gods of battle this world created by GW is impossible, yet they want marines to be amazing. So in short I agree with you. However it happened they die having fufilled their only purpose in life.

And that is war!

[Sangre]

One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

I find it hilarious that you say "GW's attempts to make Marines look badass." Because GW invented the Space Marines and continue to regulate what they are. You don't. They do. If GW say Marines are badass, then they are badass, because GW made and own them!

[Old_Paladin]

I always love these Space Marines debates for one reason; fluff changes!
Thats right, the abilities of space marines aren't written in stone (just paper) and things get forgotten with time (and new editions and new stories).
I remember a lot of stories where combat squads were all the Space marines needed. 5 guys would always wipe out an army. It was standard story structure.
Then they made marines less and less individually powerfull; it took several squads or even whole companies to get things done.
Now, if they try and go back to the older story modes, people call cheese and say nothing like that is possible.

[Melissia]

Amusing how you focus on only one part of my post-- amusing but not unexpected from a Marine player.

A character can only be as "cool" or "badass" as the quality of the writer allows them to, as well as the willingness of the reader to believe in it. I find Marine fluff to be tripe and trite; furthermore, the fact that they know no fear reduces their badassery by a large margin. Is this merely opinion? Sure. Just like your opinion that if someone says that their creation is badass, they must therefor be. I suspect that my own can be defended far more logically, however.

[entendre_entendre]

SM scouts i think would be more recon oriented than their full fledged brothers, but would still have to learn all the facets of astartes war. as for the initiates, they use their superior training, equipment, and tactics to win their battles. they wouldn't just run at the nearest enemy screaming unless that's exactly what they want to do (i.e. serving as a distraction).
the highly mobile nature as the astartes makes them an excellent counterpoint to the guard. guard: slow, weak troops, rely on superior firepower to win. SM's: fast, strong troops, rely on superior training/tactics to win.

shouldn't this be in the background section? (just sayin'...)

[DarkLink]

In the 1,000 Marine Myth there is an argument raging about whether or not Scouts are indeed Marines and there role as a Reconnaissance Force. I believe that Scouts are less recon focused, and indeed more focused on learning all types of warfare. A scout would learn every conceivable battle drill, strategy, and operation from the phalanx and double envelopment to clearing rooms and the intricacies of successfully executing an airborne operation. They spend all their time in training becoming masters of conventional warfare and executing conventional missions on the ground, like the Imperial Guard to an extent.

I use the term [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_warfare"]conventional warfare[/url] to show that a Space Marine Scout for all intents and purposes is simply a highly trained, expert infantryman. The highest level of the non-special forces designations in the Imperium. A scout is better equipped, more motivated, and better trained (mentally and physically) than any other Imperial trooper (this does not include the specialists or those tampered with).

A Space Marine IS [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_warfare"]unconventional warfare[/url]. For those who wont click the link:


A Space Marine is fear, to unleash him upon the enemy is to unleash the enemies darkest nightmares. Every citizen in the Imperium fears and loves the angels of the Emperor and whenever they become traitors, the fiery contrails from they sky is the VERY last thing they wanted to see.

But, we know the psychological effect of the Space Marines, but what about their tactics? What makes them so scary?

*When Fighting against traitor marines, real world tactics would have to be adopted, and the space marine would have to stop 'playing around'. A Chaos Marine effectively negates anything a Space Marine brings to the table, and will often be better than a regular marine in most everything, due to his long and tough life in the EoT.
.

Firstly, allow me to quoteth from the Book of the Space Marine (Codex SM); "... acting as part of an infiltration force, a scout will become skilled at every aspect of war... Space Marine Scouts chiefly fight as skirmishers. Their duties are to infiltrate enemy positing ahead of the rest of their chapter, relying on brute force- to accomplish their mission.
Operating behind enemy lines, Scouts set ambushes for the unwary, destroy ammunition dumps and vehicle pools, spy out the enemy's movement and gather what information they can about their opponent's plans. Sometimes Scouts will pounce unseen within an unsuspecting enemy camp, capturing a commander for interrogation or sabotaging equipment and supplies. Striking in silence, the Scouts' goal is to accomplish their mission and vanish before the enemy has the chance to retaliate in force..."

Then, Tactical Marines; "... they are called upon to fulfill the full range of battlefield roles; they hold ground, provide fire support or charge into the bloody melee of close combat, as the ever-changing theater of battle dictates...
...often performing surgical strikes or seizing strategic points with the aid of fast-moving Razorbacks or Rhinos..."

I think you need to re-read the definitions of conventional and unconventional warfare. Scouts clearly fight unconventional warfare. Every aspect of their primary duties are, by definition, unconventional warfare. If you don't believe me, go to Borders and pick up a few memoirs written by Soldiers and Marines who served in the Special Forces. There are plenty, and they'll give you a good idea of what sort of stuff unconventional warfare involves.

Tactical Marines do not, primarily, fight unconventional warfare. They use blitzkrieg tactics and take advantage of superior training and equipment, certainly, but these are still conventional tactics of war. This is not to say that Tactical Marines never fight in unconventional warfare, simply that it is not their normal normal modus operandi. They use conventional tactics to smash key enemy positions, allowing other forces like the Guard to carry the day. In the rare case that there are enough Marines present to hold ground, then those other forces may not be necessary.



Also, something about Chaos Marines; the majority are not 10,000 years old. The vast majority are just the same a loyalist Marines, of similar age, experience and training. Only a few of the original traitor Marines are still around, and all of them are probably Daemon Princes or Warlords by now.

Also, loyalist Marines outnumber traitor Marines by quite a bit, though loyalist Marines much more spread out.

[Melissia]

I suspect that, even if there WERE enough Marines to hold ground, they'd still rather be doing something else if they had a choice. A strike force of Marines isn't as good at defending locations for extended periods of time as a few regiments of Guard (IE, elements of an infantry, an armored, and an arty regiment, which is how the Guard is deployed-- lone regiments rarely are sent in without support). The Guard won't worry as much about ammunition shortages for one, and they have better long ranged weaponry and each loss of men and material effects them less than the same loss would a Marine force.