Astartes Tactics

[Aldramelech]

Lets have some controversy shall we?

I believe that the concept of the Space Marine chapter is best reflected in the real world by one organization, The SS.

I come to this conclusion based not just on a military perspective, but also their political position and attitude within the Imperium.

They are a self contained state within a state, they are a completely independent military force, their recruitment practices are extreme, they are fanatically devoted to the Emperor, they are genetically engineered to be Superior human beings (the ****s could only dream of that) . SS Divisions were moved from one front to the other to bolster flagging regular forces and were used at the spearhead of most major assaults, without them the Eastern Front would have collapsed on several occasions. The SS also were used as the Big Stick to keep the rest of Germany's forces in line, the Party's private army, see any similarities?

Are they tough? Yep. Are they the best troops in the Imperium? You bet. Does the Imperium talk them up with propaganda to make the population believe they are superhuman gods of war? Damm right! Its in their interests to make the people fear them.

From a purely military perspective you can make several comparisons with real world units, but the one that fits the best is probably the U.S. Marine Corps. A self contained all arms force of elite soldiers that is moved around by a huge Navy.

It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics.

Yes, but tactics are still needed, just different ones. Superior infantry forces throughout history have never been about equipment, its about training and small unit tactics. This was true of the Roman Legions and will always be as long as man walks on the battlefield. The Roman Legionary in his lōrīca segmentāta must have had much the same effect on his barbarian neighbor as the Space Marine does on his opponent's but he still had to fight as a unit and use tactics peculiar to the Roman army for it to work. When ever those tactics weren't used or broke down the invincible Legions got slaughtered.

[RocketRollRebel]

I've always believed marines are kinda one man armys but are meant for surgical strikes rather than prolong battles and holding objectives, thats more the job of the Guard. As for being indestructible there is a Ciaphus Cain novel where something like 5 World Eaters make a mess of hundreds of slaneesh traitors and loyalist pdf troops and nothing short of AT weapons (and our heroic commissar himself ) seem able to even slow them down.

[DarkLink]

I suspect that, even if there WERE enough Marines to hold ground, they'd still rather be doing something else if they had a choice.

Summed up by this:

[Melissia]

I've always believed marines are kinda one man armys but are meant for surgical strikes rather than prolong battles and holding objectives, thats more the job of the Guard. As for being indestructible there is a Ciaphus Cain novel where something like 5 World Eaters make a mess of hundreds of slaneesh traitors and loyalist pdf troops and nothing short of AT weapons (and our heroic commissar himself ) seem able to even slow them down.

All it took was a krak grenade to mortally wound one of them.

[Sitnam]

All it took was a krak grenade to mortally wound one of them.

He said it took a mess of AT weapons. Krak grenades fit that category.

[Melissia]

"A mess of" implies more than one.

[DarkLink]

Well, it only took one direct hit. Hitting a moving target in close quarters combat with an Anti-tank weapon is easier said than done. That's the real advantage of power armor: you need big guns to punch through it, but a mobile, man-sized target is awfully tough to hit. It'd be like having a single RPG in your squad, and you have to get a direct hit to kill the other guy.

[gorepants]

Gotta agree with Aldramelech and Melissia on this one, marines are a specialist force, but they are still just dudes in armour and will go down like anyone else if they stand about in the open.

I doesn't even need a krak grenade, [URL="http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/ssin.jpg"]just sleeze onto the wrong girl[/URL] or [URL="http://i.somethingawful.com/u/elpintogrande/october09/roguetrader/roguetrader_04.gif"]ork[/URL] and a marine goes down like anyone.

But more seriously, I think the big problem with your thesis is you take the armour before the man - and this is a problem in a lot of spacemarine mythology. You end up with barbarian-knights in armour that you point at a target and say go get 'em since all they need is anger, a lack of fear and armour. This is how a lot of the stories are written and is at odds with the fluff that says they super-smart super-humans. The less steroidal fluff would see them more like the SAS (<insert other special forces here>), in that they are deep insertion small force specialists - their role is not to kill all the enemy but to kill the right enemy to get some particular, strategically important job done. In this respect they are very definition of unconventional soldiers, but send them into the wrong battle undermanned and they will be toast.

And as to scouts being front line troops, I think this misses the whole cost-benefit part of why you would put marines in armour and scouts not on the front line. Making a marine involves a disproportionately large investment of time and resources, and you want to protect that and use it where it counts most. This means: putting them in better armour and being careful about where you put them. Trainees have already shown themselves to be capable fighters, so there is no reason they cannot be fast tracked past frontline duties. Another consideration is that you are dealing with very small forces a scout company is 20-200 men. Fielding the whole company might be enough to fight conventionally, but the cost-benefit of using them like that is heavily in the red, particularly since they are almost marines too.

If I can go back to my AU/UK analogy, marines act like the SAS/SBS - deep insertion, specialist targets, high independence and generaly being hard. Scouts are like [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando"]commandos[/URL], deep insertion, lower indepenedence and not quite as hard. The line is blurred given that in some operations both act like the highly mobile marines in conventional roles, though they lack the proper support infrastucture to act in a fully self contained conventional role like the USCM (few MBTs, no real artillery, poor air superiority, etc).That and being a tiny force - a full marine chapter is barely battalion sized. Stick em in good armour and they can do more, more easily, but they are still going to need some for of tactical decision making because otherwise they are going to make easy targets of themselves. And even if they survive they don't want to get shot up since that means a whole lot of polishing to get that armour back to shiny and new.

Now of course this is in idealisation of the smart side of space marines. Far on the other side is when they act like a bunch of numpties and go around getting angry and charging at things when they don't need to (some times they do need to do this, and military history is littered with people doing extremely heroic things, it's just that in good soldiering this should be the exception not rule). If they are to be an effective fighting force, knowing no fear should mean being unaffraid to act on difficult but calculated descisions, not to just go ove the top in heavy fire because it's the straightest line to the enemy.

And bright colours are still stupid even if you're in armour - you're waiting in ambush when the enemy spot you from 5 miles away and shell you to pieces. Not so good.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Firstly, allow me to quoteth from the Book of the Space Marine (Codex SM); "... acting as part of an infiltration force, a scout will become skilled at every aspect of war... Space Marine Scouts chiefly fight as skirmishers. Their duties are to infiltrate enemy positing ahead of the rest of their chapter, relying on brute force- to accomplish their mission.
Operating behind enemy lines, Scouts set ambushes for the unwary, destroy ammunition dumps and vehicle pools, spy out the enemy's movement and gather what information they can about their opponent's plans. Sometimes Scouts will pounce unseen within an unsuspecting enemy camp, capturing a commander for interrogation or sabotaging equipment and supplies. Striking in silence, the Scouts' goal is to accomplish their mission and vanish before the enemy has the chance to retaliate in force..."

This is does not disprove my assertions, merely reinforces the 'full-spectrum' aspect of them.

I think you need to re-read the definitions of conventional and unconventional warfare. Scouts clearly fight unconventional warfare. Every aspect of their primary duties are, by definition, unconventional warfare. If you don't believe me, go to Borders and pick up a few memoirs written by Soldiers and Marines who served in the Special Forces. There are plenty, and they'll give you a good idea of what sort of stuff unconventional warfare involves.

Haha. I think you need to realize anyone with a weapon can fight conventional or unconventional warfare. I have done an ungodly amount of study, research, and some slight application into this, and I dont think I am wrong. All militaries can do either, as a Space Marine can do either.

Tactical Marines do not, primarily, fight unconventional warfare. They use blitzkrieg tactics and take advantage of superior training and equipment, certainly, but these are still conventional tactics of war. This is not to say that Tactical Marines never fight in unconventional warfare, simply that it is not their normal normal modus operandi. They use conventional tactics to smash key enemy positions, allowing other forces like the Guard to carry the day. In the rare case that there are enough Marines present to hold ground, then those other forces may not be necessary.

It depends on the foe, a Space Marine can be conducting both at the same time, scaring an opponent into capitulation through the terror of his physical being while executing conventional operations.

One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

You, by default, dont get to participate in this discussion . You neither believe marines are good for anything nor the power level established by GW. So since this isn't Astartes Tactics in Melissa 40K, its Astartes Tactics in the real 40K, you assessments and assumption arn't real.

Lets have some controversy shall we?

I believe that the concept of the Space Marine chapter is best reflected in the real world by one organization, The SS.

I come to this conclusion based not just on a military perspective, but also their political position and attitude within the Imperium.

I agree, though some chapter avoid politics.

They are a self contained state within a state, they are a completely independent military force, their recruitment practices are extreme, they are fanatically devoted to the Emperor, they are genetically engineered to be Superior human beings (the ****s could only dream of that) . SS Divisions were moved from one front to the other to bolster flagging regular forces and were used at the spearhead of most major assaults, without them the Eastern Front would have collapsed on several occasions. The SS also were used as the Big Stick to keep the rest of Germany's forces in line, the Party's private army, see any similarities?

Are they tough? Yep. Are they the best troops in the Imperium? You bet. Does the Imperium talk them up with propaganda to make the population believe they are superhuman gods of war? Damm right! Its in their interests to make the people fear them.

From a purely military perspective you can make several comparisons with real world units, but the one that fits the best is probably the U.S. Marine Corps. A self contained all arms force of elite soldiers that is moved around by a huge Navy.

No argument here.

It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics.

Yes, but tactics are still needed, just different ones. Superior infantry forces throughout history have never been about equipment, its about training and small unit tactics. This was true of the Roman Legions and will always be as long as man walks on the battlefield. The Roman Legionary in his lōrīca segmentāta must have had much the same effect on his barbarian neighbor as the Space Marine does on his opponent's but he still had to fight as a unit and use tactics peculiar to the Roman army for it to work. When ever those tactics weren't used or broke down the invincible Legions got slaughtered.

Well, to be fair, we have never had something as profound as genetically engineered warrior OR power armor. Marines arn't invincible.

[Sitnam]

"A mess of" implies more than one.

To wipe out an entire squad yes. Take into account that those AT weapons would likely need a direct hit to take out a marine, a direct hit on a agile target with a weapon designed to defeat tanks. Yeah, that would require a mess of AT weapons to get the desired number of direct hits.

But more seriously, I think the big problem with your thesis is you take the armour before the man - and this is a problem in a lot of spacemarine mythology. You end up with barbarian-knights in armour that you point at a target and say go get 'em since all they need is anger, a lack of fear and armour. This is how a lot of the stories are written and is at odds with the fluff that says they super-smart super-humans. The less steroidal fluff would see them more like the SAS (<insert other special forces here>), in that they are deep insertion small force specialists - their role is not to kill all the enemy but to kill the right enemy to get some particular, strategically important job done. In this respect they are very definition of unconventional soldiers, but send them into the wrong battle undermanned and they will be toast.

You see alot of this in the Forgeworld books, especially Taros and the first two Vraks books (Haven't read 3rd yet.) Marines were inserted t take out a specific target for maximum effect, against overwhelming numbers and firepower.

And bright colours are still stupid even if you're in armour - you're waiting in ambush when the enemy spot you from 5 miles away and shell you to pieces. Not so good.

Some chapters will camoflauge their armor, as an example you can look at the Badab war campaign book. Others strike so fast and so sudden from drop pods that such things don't matter as much. But overall, it isn't the smartest tactical choice.