Astartes Tactics

[Melissia]

The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway. Marines may be agile, but they're not that much moreso than other veterans experienced in close combat (Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers). And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth.

You, by default, dont get to participate in this discussion

You assume that I care.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway. Marines may be agile, but they're not that much moreso than other veterans experienced in close combat (Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers). And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth.

You assume that I care.

With you I only assume the souls of babies sustain your fiery lust for all things Sisters. Everything else is free game.


EDIT: I should add :P , so you dont think I am trolling.

[Sitnam]

Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers

Black Library cannot be taken as seriously as other pieces of fluff because authors consistently bend the rules of what GW sets. Cain is the titular character of the book, did you expect anything more from Sandy Mitchell then to not glorify his creation. BL is a good source of fluff, but with grains of salt. And as you said, Cain is an EXTREMLY well accomplished human.

The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway.

The marines have meltaguns and other AT guns for destorying transports, so why does it matter the bolters effectiveness?

And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth.

And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

[Aldramelech]

And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

Anti tank weapons are being used in Afghanistan regularly (Javelin) to take out Taliban snipers.

[Schultzhoffen]

I'd agree that Marines fit the German SS comparison. Just as the Imperium basically mirrors many crazy religious/political Totalitarian Regimes (think Communism, 1984 by Orwell, **** Germany, The Spanish Inquisition, etc).

Marines are a shock force. They're a hard-hitting offensive unit meant to cripple enemy HQ, Communications, supply lines, etc. IG hold the ground and engage in 'meat-grinder' type battles. Marines pick their battles. The aim is to strike where the enemy is weak. If you can kill him in his sleep, even better.

Marines can vary tactics according to the situation. They are an elite unit clad in power armour and armed with an array of powerful weapons. They are pretty formidable. Their weakness is low numbers which is why (partially) they need to select their targets carefully. The days of the Legions are long gone (now there must nave been a sight to see!).

Marines are not invulnerable. Show me a troop unit that is. However, they are tough. They are also a great psychological weapon. What is the old saying? 'Power Perceived is Power Achieved'. In other words, the threat of Marines is often enough to frighten rebels into compliance (I'm obviously speaking of ordinary men, here).

Fluff-wise and gaming-wise, I'd suggest that the basic Tac Marine is better than any other basic troop choice of any other army (I'm not counting Chaos Cult units - Plague Marines are the best troop unit in the Universe, bar none. Plague Marines reek of win).

From an intellectual point of view I hate the fascist swine but, by God, from an emotional point of view, I love those power-armoured *******s!

[Sitnam]

And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

Anti tank weapons are being used in Afghanistan regularly (Javelin) to take out Taliban snipers.

Source? I highly doubt those snipers are doing anything besides sitting still. If US backed forces were regularly scoring direct hits on running infantrymen, that would have some credence to the conversation. But snipers sit still, firing shots from long distance. I find it highly believable that Javelins, which don't need to score direct shots to kill unarmored Taliban, can them out while sitting still. But its highly unlikely that they would be able to hit Taliban directly while they were running around, shooting, taking cover. They could kill some due to shrapnel, which is probably how the majority of the infantry kills are done with AT weapons anyway. But a marine needs a direct hit to kill with a standard AT weapon. And while their bulk may make it a bit easier, they are faster and more battle hardened then ANY modern day warrior.

[Nabterayl]

I don't disagree with the unconventional warfare and total warfare points that M2C makes, but I do have to throw my hat in with Mel on the "one marine is not an army eraser" point. If we're agreed that we have to take BL titles with a grain of salt, what are we left with? Remember the first Raptors drop on Taros? Three assault marines put out of action by a single Hydra turret. Those men weren't killed - it's probably safe to assume they lived to fight another day - but they were wounded seriously enough to be casualties for purposes of the rest of the drop.

One Hydra turret.

And then there's the defeat of Second Company of the Avenging Sons by a single hunter cadre during the attack on the governor's mansion, at the start of the Taros incident. The death of Sergeant Culln's assault squad in the breach of the curtain wall on Vraks, five assault marines against a mere several hundred traitor guardsmen.

Space marines are superhuman killing machines with the skills and (in many ways, at least) the mentality of extremely veteran special forces. But that's all they are. They aren't "one man armies" except in the sense that any special forces operator is a "one man army" (which in many ways, of course, a special forces operator is). If a space marine could really take on hundred-to-one odds, Culln's squad would have survived the assault on the breach. It is completely and utterly remarkable that any man survived that engagement, yes, and I think it's a given that no other Imperial forces could have done so with only five men. But four of the five still died to nothing more than several hundred guardsmen.

What makes space marines work, in my opinion, is not so much their power armor, physiology, and weaponry as it is their mobility. Drop pods and Thunderhawk transporters are a big deal. The former gives a marine commander the capability to drop troops wherever he wants, essentially heedless of surface to air defenses - as long as the mothership can face the surface-to-orbit defenses, the pods can drop. Thunderhawk transporters allow a marine commander to deploy and redeploy his entire armored contingent by air - and even on the ground, his AFVs are the fastest in the Imperium, for their firepower.

These are the advantages I see that space marines have compared to other Imperial forces. Individual space marines may be scary, but not scary enough that they can afford not to fight smart. Have a space marine charge an autocannon position and there's a decent chance he'll get put out of the fight, as the Raptors demonstrate. Charge even regular humans at hundred-to-one odds and even space marines lose, as the Red Scorpions demonstrate. Pit them against a mechanized foe and things get even grimmer, as space marine AFVs are really just fast and heavily armed for their speed. A Predator does not outclass a Leman Russ the way power armor outclasses flak armor, or even the way a boltgun outclasses a lasgun.

Drop pods and Thunderhawks, though, allow space marines to fight smart. They allow the marines to outmaneuver the targets they can't kill (which, in a campaign of any size, will be many), and knock out the targets they can (which, in all fairness, are also many; I'm not suggesting marines are pansies). But once the advantage of speed is lost, things start getting hairy. Space marine lore is full of marines making glorious last stands against hordes of foes, but they tend to be just that - last stands. Astonishing feats of arms, yes. Tribute to the general badassery of the Adeptus Astartes, yes. But also an admonition that a space marine who wants to live to fight another day strikes when he is not expected, hits his target fast enough that it cannot be reinforced, and then exfiltrates.

Which is awesome. And cool. And also the same thing as saying they strike when they are not expected, hits his target fast enough that it cannot be reinforced, and then runs the hell away. Because marines who are brought to conventional engagements fight well, kill lots of the enemy, and have a tendency to die.

[Aldramelech]

Source? I highly doubt those snipers are doing anything besides sitting still. If US backed forces were regularly scoring direct hits on running infantrymen, that would have some credence to the conversation. But snipers sit still, firing shots from long distance. I find it highly believable that Javelins, which don't need to score direct shots to kill unarmored Taliban, can them out while sitting still. But its highly unlikely that they would be able to hit Taliban directly while they were running around, shooting, taking cover. They could kill some due to shrapnel, which is probably how the majority of the infantry kills are done with AT weapons anyway. But a marine needs a direct hit to kill with a standard AT weapon. And while their bulk may make it a bit easier, they are faster and more battle hardened then ANY modern day warrior.

I will not discuss my "Source's" or knowledge of this practice.

However a simple search of the internet gives you ample evidence:

[url]http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2587313/Bang-on-target.html[/url]

Note that in the article, it states the Taliban have started calling it "The Missile that chases us". Ive not heard that but it sounds plausible.

I will say (and this is information in the public domain) that you can move about as much as you like, Javelin is a smart "Fire and Forget" system. Once you have locked on to the targets heat source the missile tracks that target automatically, there is no escape. This includes enemy personnel. The weapon also has a selectable top attack mode, so you can bring in the shot straight down, no hiding behind walls either.

AT weapons such as Javelin don't create shrapnel, they kill by blast overpressure.

The only problem with this practice is justifying using a £70,000 missile to kill a couple of blokes.

[Denzark]

Amusing 'mass-debate' for a Sunday.

A few points.

1. SS yes were generally better equipped (but not trained better - probably just harsher) but what made them tough opponents was Esprit de Corps - they would fight until the bitter end (probably because they knew they were for the chop if taken prisoner). Marines aren't suicide troops in the way the SS were from time to time - I would say quite appropriately the SS are more IG storm trooper like - Maybe marine scouts are Skorzeny's chaps?

2. Melly you care enough to keep responding - you have a lot of teen angst at the mo just let go.

3. Sitnam if you are not happy with Mr A's open source I can back it up - I won't talk sources either suffice to say HM pays my wages and sends me to sandy places with alarming regularity.

4. I think its what has been alluded to. That good ole North Vietnamese tactic of 'grab them by their belts'. Marines are designed to get in close, where their armour and physiology win every time. At 3 miles a Guard Division would shred a battle company. When that company drops in 100 metres away and thunderhawk transports bring in the land raiders, and the terminators borrowed from the first are already shredding Div HQ after a bit of quality teleporting, I would see 100 marines doing a Div (6000ish?) of guard easy.

[Aldramelech]

Amusing 'mass-debate' for a Sunday.

A few points.

1. SS yes were generally better equipped (but not trained better - probably just harsher) but what made them tough opponents was Esprit de Corps - they would fight until the bitter end (probably because they knew they were for the chop if taken prisoner). Marines aren't suicide troops in the way the SS were from time to time - I would say quite appropriately the SS are more IG storm trooper like - Maybe marine scouts are Skorzeny's chaps?

2. Melly you care enough to keep responding - you have a lot of teen angst at the mo just let go.

3. Sitnam if you are not happy with Mr A's open source I can back it up - I won't talk sources either suffice to say HM pays my wages and sends me to sandy places with alarming regularity.

4. I think its what has been alluded to. That good ole North Vietnamese tactic of 'grab them by their belts'. Marines are designed to get in close, where their armour and physiology win every time. At 3 miles a Guard Division would shred a battle company. When that company drops in 100 metres away and thunderhawk transports bring in the land raiders, and the terminators borrowed from the first are already shredding Div HQ after a bit of quality teleporting, I would see 100 marines doing a Div (6000ish?) of guard easy.

But just think of all those bargins to be had at the Jingly Market! lol