Wave Serpents: Serpent Shield and Spirit Stones

[Magpie]

Around my way once you roll for the damage results of a penetrating hit, the opportunity to roll for things like cover saves, downgrading the pen to a glance etc has passed.

[DarkLink]

Which is why I said it's obvious which one comes first.

[Magpie]

Sure but you also said it doesn't matter if you don't do it in order.

[DarkLink]

If it specified to do it in that order, it's explicit that you get the downgrade, so you would get it even after rolling for damage (similar to, say, Venerable Dreadnoughts rerolling damage). Either way, you get the downgrade. It just doesn't make sense to do it backwards.

[Magpie]

The Ven Dread is totally different as it is specifically a re-roll of the damage result.

[Edit, No Idea why I wrote this: like the Spirit Stones so it can't not be done after rolling on the damage table.]

The Serpent Shield allows you to downgrade a pen, but if you don't roll for it prior to the damage table result being rolled then you have missed your chance.
It's like forgetting to roll for reserves before moving a unit.

[Deathboon]

The Ven Dread is totally different as it is specifically a re-roll of the damage result, like the Spirit Stones so it can't not be done after rolling on the damage table.

The Serpent Shield allows you to downgrade a pen, but if you don't roll for it prior to the damage table result being rolled then you have missed your chance.
It's like forgetting to roll for reserves before moving a unit.

Magpie the problem here is that (to use your own phrasing) you can't not roll for the serpent shield just like you can't not roll for reserves. These actions are compulsory and it sets a bad precedent to allow your opponent to forget them. In either situation if you know he needs to roll for the serpent shield and "forget" to remind him you're cheating just as surely as your opponent "forgetting" to roll reserves would also be cheating.

[Tynskel]

Zzzing!

[Magpie]

You could equally say that "forgetting" and then "remembering" later and going back and re rolling all the stuff that should have happened is cheating as well. There is a guy in my area who does this all of the time hence why we tend to be pretty strict.

To be honest leaving it until after you've rolled for damage wouldn't be the end of the world and in most cases I'd allow it no problem, it is however making an allowance and by no means the correct way of doing things which why I say that "it doesn't matter" really isn't the case.

Oh and by the way, Serpent Shield rolls aren't compulsory although the stuff I typed earlier may have looked like I was saying that.

[SacredChao]

The question wasn't really about the benefit of not rolling (the only I can see is hoping it explodes so you have some area terrain for enhanced Go To Ground save) or whether you can, but what order. The wording I believe says "immediately" roll a 2+ to downgrade it. So as soon as the result of a penetration is rolled, you roll the dice, then take cover saves, etc.

However it doesn't *really* matter, in my opinion. regardless of the order, a number of pens/glances are rolled, the 2+ are rolled, some are saved, others not. The order doesn't matter except for one thing. If your opponent rolls the result of the pen first, and it's an "Explodes" his hopes are dashed onto the ground as you roll that 2+ then cover save! Whereas if you fail the 2+ and cover first, his hopes soar like an eagle because he got something through the shields and could mean the death of the vehicle!

So it seems more a psychological benefit, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Finnegan]

[...] more a psychological benefit, [...]

And those are really important