Black Templars Rumor Roundup

[Bigred]

via Faeit 212 7-17-2013

In so far as Black Templar: They are getting a full book not a supplement. The direction of the book is on "crusades," and differentiating the Black Templar when they persecute Xenos as opposed to when they put the Witch to the sword.

They are seeing a lot of changes from their previous incarnation, and are no longer a shooting army (despite the intention of the previous book, they were received as a shooting army).

The army will have a "knights in space" kind of feel with wargear being a very big importance for the characters, and vows similar to old bretonians. The struggle there is with book keeping, but it is a pretty cool concept.

Crusade squads with their hybrid neophyte and space marine combinations are gone. Which will probably anger a lot of people without pleasing any (since in the past you could just take 0 neophytes so in essence this is just removing choices), but take it for what it's worth.

The whole "move after taking casualties" thing is gone and has been replaced with something more similar to battle trance (but less swift, and more assault oriented).

Templar point costs are down even from those of dark angels, and are designed to be balanced by their point cost, but also deliver the feeling that this is a "crusade army" that has never really felt the yoke of the codex astartes, and thus has huge companies of marines.

Neophytes get their own unit entry, 5-10 unit size, they're 0-X max, where X = squads with the crusader keyword (crusader squad, sword brethren, assault squads, bike squads). It seems like the terminators either don't take squires anymore or they fall under sword brethren.
They get attached to squads with the crusade keyword at the start of the game when the main squad is deployed or they can be deployed independently.
They're troops, but if they are attached to a unit they take on whatever squad type the parent squad is. Otherwise though they take up no force org.
Initiates come with bp/ccw and grenades, one in 5 can take an assault gun, and their squad size is 1-20. 11 points each. They can replace their weapons with blotters for a price. They're bs3, and can buy bs4 for a price.
Can take land raiders as dedicated transports at a really decent price reduction.
All power armoured models roll 3D6, pick the two highest to charge. Casualties they take from overwatch are done after initiative 1 attacks are resolved and before combat resolution using the new "closest models." (basically distributed as CC)
1-3 per choice elite champion-like model who takes vows. Vows are a lot like dark angel banners and revolve around objectives (defending or taking), but only apply to the unit they've joined and are a bit more toned down. Reminiscent of space wolf oaths.
HQs get access to better vows, and are different for chaplains and Captains. Emperor's champion is only required in games over 1500 points, does not take up an HQ slot and does not have macro-vows anymore, instead...
The army buys a vow for 0-40 points for every 1,000 or more points the army is. You can only buy one vow and it basically stacks in cost the bigger the army is.
Some vows are cheaper than others.
Vows have either an anti- psyker or xenos feel.
Wargear is significantly cheaper for BT characters.
Squads that have taken casualties are subject to rage for the remainder of the game.

via Faeit 212 7-18-2013

Neophytes:
Scout stat line.
They do not take up a force organization slot, but count as troops for all intents and purposes (scoring etc).

They do not have infiltrate, or move through cover. They also are not subject to rage after taking a casualty.
The number of neophyte squads you can take equals the number of initiate, assault, bike and sword brethren squads total you have in the army.

Sword brethren terminators do not increase this limit.

Once purchased, as a 5-10 unit choice they are their own selection.

When deploying squads with the crusade keyword (initiates, assault, bikes) you can attach a neophyte squad to it. This then becomes one unit for all intents and purposes for the remainder of the game and cannot be split.

If the squad numbers 5 models, neophytes can buy bikes. They cannot buy jump packs. They come with bolt pistol and ccw and they cannot take special weapons. Those on bikes can upgrade to grenade launchers though. Neophytes can take shotguns

if you don't want to attach them, you can just deploy them as their own unit.

From what it seems, you can put neophytes with bikes into squads without bikes, and vice versa.


Initiates:
Initiates have the stats of a basic marine, except their bs which is 3. It's +1 point per model (and the whole squad has to buy it), to get up to bs 4. For 1 more point, you swap their chainsword for a bolter. They are 10-20. Only assault special weapons (meltaguns, plasmaguns or flamers) can be taken. No heavy weapons. Instead of assault weapons they can take power weapons. They can replace both their bp and ccw for a heavy chainsword. They do not have sergeants, and are leadership 8.

Yes it's possible to take 20 initiates and 10 neophytes it seems.

Castellans:
Castellans are a 0-3 per slot elites choice. They are independent characters and take on vows that are reminiscent of oaths of moment from the books. Things like taking objectives, or defending them till the end and confer that benefit to initiates (or better) that are in the same squad as them. They can't take more than one vow and vows have different point costs. They get access to all sorts of interesting wargear, and unique wargear. They do not have to take wargear or vows, and are more expensive than a wolf guard, despite having the same stats. They are leadership 9.

This playtest set is incomplete and out of date, but since it's only one version out, it should be pretty close to what is currently being used.

via BoLS 7-19-2013

A large kit design was reported as follows:
- a fully enclosed "dreadknight"
- wielding a large crusader shield and mace
- upper body mounted assault cannon

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

hmm so this will be the true marine horde army then? i mean i'm excited but i kind of assumed that templars were going to be folded into the main marine book or taken care of in a suppliment?

[mysterex]

hmm so this will be the true marine horde army then? i mean i'm excited but i kind of assumed that templars were going to be folded into the main marine book or taken care of in a suppliment?

I've also been told that the CSM codex was designed to let you play a power armoured horde but I've yet to see one that looks like that. And they're the cheapest marines currently available.

If they make Templars cheaper that Dark Angels then it could only be justified by what you lose. I'm guessing stubborn and combat squads. But then you'll have something the same cost (or less) than a CSM but with ATSKNF. I can almost hear the complaints from CSM players already.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Dunno didnt think of chaos as a horde more so as an elite force. and from using them they tend to get expensive quickly once you start buying things for them. i would have thought templars could do it better with the way to react to shooting. current rules allow them to close on you rather quickly. dunno though mine never were a horde force. :/

[GravesDisease]

Horde marines, that's awesome. I quite like the idea of a black sea rolling across the table but they really have to properly think how this is going to be fesible. Having proper multipurpose plastic kits is mandatory otherwise it'd just known as the proxy army.

@mysterex The payoff for even cheaper marines is as you said, the loss of those but also limiting options such as static heavy weapons and tactical options.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Not buying it. Not buying it at all.

The whole 'Neophyte Council' unit? Why? What does that achieve?

0-X? that went the way of the DoDo ages ago, on account it interfered with sales and list choice. But mostly sales.

Someone has been busy on the wishlist-o-matic.

[Bionic Boy]

via Faeit 212 7-17-2013 It seems like the terminators either don't take squires anymore or they fall under sword brethren.

I have not read my codex in years, but I don't remember anything about terminators being able to take squires.

Wishlist-o-matic, indeed!

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The changes will be welcome, my only gripe is that Castellans need to be HQ not elites like Wolf Guard Battle Leaders. HQ options are limited both fluff and game wise by moving them to Elites. Castellans should command whole fighting companies of various sizes, not just squads of various sizes.

The changes to the crusader squads are right on the money, and the neophytes being detached and assigned to squads makes for more flexibility on the field.

The only question remaining are the changes to bike squads, HQs, Assault Squads, and the Elite Choices. Chaplains should be 1-3 elites, like the rumors for Castellans and HQs should be Marshal, Champion, and Reclusiarch plus SCs if they hope to remain true to any of the background.

Moving them farther away from the Codex is a great idea, but they need to be more like the Legion Space Marines list, not something all their own.

[Caitsidhe]

I think it is quite likely they will design them as a Horde list. I don't think balancing that against the cost of other books is going to weigh on their minds one bit. The point will be to sell lots of models. There are things working against them. The average game size in the U.S. seems to have dropped to 1500-1850. Even when going "horde" that isn't going to put a huge lot of models out there. Moreover, most people don't like doing Horde armies.

[Dimitrios]

As much as people are saying they are a horde army, I can see them being a HORDE in a LANDRAIDER army if the roumer that they have become cheap holds true... Taking a cheap crusader and you now have a a viable 2 - 3 Landraider army full the brim with close combat oriented marines, buffed with cheap characters and vows.

If you feel a massive foot army against some of the more shooting armies out there i cannot imagine you getting THAT far across the table. It is this reason that CSM havent gone full horde IMO.

This horde format hinges massivly around the transport options... Or indeed what units/ abilities they have to ignore the vast amount of AP3/ S6+ weaponry that are around.