3+ is the best cover save you can get without Stealth, Shrouding or Camo Cloaks etc.

[Harley]

I often run into opponents trying to Go To Ground in Area Terrain near a Ruin, arguing that their unit is 25% obscured by the Ruin and thus get a 4+ and since they are in Area Terrain and get a 2+ bonus to cover for a total of a 2+ save. This seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Are these people stuck in 5th edition??? The rules clearly state on page 91 of the BRB:
"Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1."

So you disregard the 25% obscurement from the Ruins, apply your 5+ from Area Terrain, with your 2+ bonus and get a 3+ total. 2+ cover can only be achieved with a USR like Stealth or a Camo Cloak.

Most importantly, cover is on a model by model basis and models that are not in the Area Terrain, regardless of if the majority of the models are in it, can be focus fired and do not receive a cover save (especially if they are the closest models, in which case they don't even need to be focus fired).

I need a list of page numbers to quickly read off because this happens almost every game I play. Any help is appreciated.

[Wolfshade]

Consider this,

A bunker (3+) is in area terrain, you go to ground in the bunker in the area terrain, so you get a 1+ by that logic...

The trouble is that the rules do not explicity say this, they do say however that you get the save that is appropriate to the cover you are behind, so they have two options.

a) Go to ground behind the ruin to give the 3+
or
b) Go to ground in the area terrain to give 3+

I don't have the rule book with me but it is to do with the fact that you may have mulitple different types of coversave available to you but you have to choose which one you are taking

[Finnegan]

"3+ is the best cover save you can get without Stealth, Shrouding or Camo Cloaks etc. " - that's not entirely true

You can get 2+ cover save for Going to Ground behind Aegis Defence Line and other terrain you and your opponent agreed to treat as "Battlefield Debris (Defence Lines)" (We've made large section of fortified imperial trenches and we use DL rules for them).

I think you can also get 2+ cover save for Going to Ground behind Imperial Statue (3+ for statue, lowered by one for GtG).

But yes, you can't get better cover save than 3+ by GtG in area terrain/behind ruins without some special rule (Stealth, Shrouded, Camo Cloaks, Nightfight etc.)

[Ben_S]

This has recently been done to death in a thread on the main site, so the counter argument should be quite obvious. (I'm merely stating here what defenders of the 2+ save will, or should, say - I don't have a settled view of my own.)

After quoting the rules, you say "So you disregard the 25% obscurement from the Ruins", but where is it said that you disregard the ruins?

The argument is as follows: You have 5+ from area terrain, whether or not you're 25% obscured. But you also have 4+ from ruins (assuming you're 25% obscured). Nothing stops you from having two possible cover saves and you use the best of them, which is 4+. (Would you say the models only get 5+ if they don't GtG?)

Now suppose that the models opt to GtG. When you GtG you get +1 cover save, or +2 if you are in area terrain. It doesn't say +2 to the cover save from the area terrain (i.e. the 5+). The models behind the ruin have a 4+ cover save from the ruin and, because they are in area terrain, they get +2, hence 2+.

As I say, I'm not saying that this is how it should be played, but it seems a fairly clear/literal application of RAW, unless you can point to anything that says to disregard the ruins.

[FlyerMM]

I don't see what the argument is about, if they are in a position that allows them to gain a cover save better than the 5+ for area terrain, I don't see anything that says the +2 modifier for going to ground in area terrain does not apply to this better cover save. Area terrain grants a cover save regardless of if your model is 25% obscured, but if the model is also obscured from the unit firing at by something that gives a better save it would seem to me that it would just make them that much harder to hit overall.

Think of it this way, you are trying to shoot at a guy hiding in trees, but you also have a wall in the way making it even harder to hit him. It would seem to me that a target in this situation would be harder to hit when he goes to ground than a target that only had the wall blocking it and decided to go to ground. I can see nothing that states the rules should not be combined when the rare situation allows it.

It is not often that someone will be in area terrain and obscured by a ruins. At least not on most of the tables I have played on. The only things I would say is make sure that only the models actually obscured by the ruins are granted the better save and not the entire unit most ruins do not obscure enough of line of sight to the target that unless the unit is in the ruins it is unlikely that more than a couple models will be more than 25% obscured. And, unless you are playing in a tournament where the terrain is defined for you, make sure you agree with your opponent on what each piece of terrain is and the cover save granted by it.

[Sly]

You should read the thread, the arguments for and against getting a 2+ while IN Area Terrain and BEHIND Ruins have been thoroughly covered there.

My short version: a model can have multiple invulnerable saves, and takes the best one. Ditto, for cover saves. Having one item that says "you get a 6+ invulnerable save" does not stop your other item that gives you a 3+ invulnerable save from working. Similarly, getting a 5+ cover from Area Terrain does not stop your 4+ cover from working. And, the Area Terrain rules for Going To Ground specify a +2 bonus to your Cover Save, but does not specify that it's only the cover save from the Area Terrain. Thus, GTG would modify all of your cover saves by +2, including the 4+ from Ruins. You can have multiple cover saves, and take the best one. And cover is done by model, so it is possible that some models may get the 2+ since they are covered behind the Ruins, while others are only in Area Terrain and thus would only get a 3+.

[Wolfshade]

Having slept on this I revise/reverse my opinion.

On a model by model wise you go:
a) Is the model in cover (25%)?
b) Is the model in area terrain?

These are two seperate questions.
So say a model is behind a ruin wall, so is it in cover? Yes, so you get at least a 4+,
Next you decide to go to ground, am I in area terrain? Yes, rules say if you are in area terrain your cover save is improved by +2 rather than +1, so my cover save is 2+.

Remembering that all area terrain counts as difficult terrain, but not all difficult terrain counts as area terrain and that no save can ever be improved beyond 2+.

Remembering that ruin bases are area terrain will probably mean that this scenario occurs more than people may think.

[Nabterayl]

This seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. The rules clearly state on page 91 of the BRB:
"Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1."

So you disregard the 25% obscurement from the Ruins, apply your 5+ from Area Terrain

"Regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured" does not mean to disregard the fact that they are not 25% obscured. That is not what "regardless of whether or not" means. "Regardless of whether or not" means "even if it is not true." Page 91 says that models in Area Terrain receive a 5+ cover save even if they are not 25% obscured.

It is possible, therefore (though depending on the angles and terrain involved, not guaranteed) that a model in Area Terrain can receive a 5+ cover save for being in Area Terrain and another cover save for being 25% obscured. That second cover save could be 6+, 5+, 4+, or 3+, depending on what the intervening terrain actually is. Since the Area Terrain rules do not specify that the bonus to cover saves is to the bonus conferred by the Area Terrain itself, Going to Ground in Area Terrain would apply a +2 bonus to whichever cover save the model in question is actually using. If it's a 3+ or 4+ cover save for being obscured by the appropriate terrain, that would improve to 2+.

[Harley]

Look at page 91. The rule states: "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they 25% obscured". So;
a) Is the model in cover (25%)?
b) Is the model in area terrain?
The rules clearly say that you get a 5+ regardless of if you are obscured by ruins. Not a 4+
That said, I did forget about the bit with Aegis lines and GTG etc, good point there.

"Regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured" does not mean to disregard the fact that they are not 25% obscured. That is not what "regardless of whether or not" means. "Regardless of whether or not" means "even if it is not true." Page 91 says that models in Area Terrain receive a 5+ cover save even if they are not 25% obscured.

You don't seem to understand that "Regardless" is synonymous with "Disregard", the operative word here being "Regard" and in effect being without any or having no regard to.

[DarkLink]

You're misreading that rule. It doesn't meant that you don't get other cover saves (it explicitly states elsewhere that if you get multiple cover saves, you always use the best one), it means that if you're in area terrain, you don't need to be 25% obscured to get the 5+.