Codex Chaos Space Marines MKII

[daboarder]

BUT BUT BUT,

The legions don't exist anymore (despite the Primarchs leading them on realspace raids.....), and it makes more sense for the unfettered, uncountable hordes of chaos warbands out there to all work EXACTLY THE SAME.....

Just like it makes perfect sense for those 10000 year old veterans to be worse than their 300 year old counterparts...senility and all that.

And finally this all ties in with the fact that despite being excommunicated for innovation the dark mechanicus can't figure out how to change up the weapons on the standard raider/rhino....whereas their ritula bound brothers in the regular mechanicus crank out different variants every couple of thousand years....

/stupid logic

realistically theres not much we can do except hope that it gets fixed in another 7 years....maybe, if any of us could be bothered with this **** anymore.

[DWest]

And finally this all ties in with the fact that despite being excommunicated for innovation the dark mechanicus can't figure out how to change up the weapons on the standard raider/rhino....whereas their ritula bound brothers in the regular mechanicus crank out different variants every couple of thousand years....

Actually, the Dark Mechanicum *have* been innovating . . . they've developed several innovative ways to shove daemons into metal shells and make them dance and do tricks (see: Defiler, Forge/Maulerfiend, Decimator, etc.). That isn't the kind of innovation you want, but it is innovation, and it's pretty much been the way of the Dark Mechanicum from day 1. Go re-read Mechanicum itself; their method of innovation was pretty much "let's mainline raw Chaos from a rusty needle, and see what happens!"

Furthermore, the new Land Raider/Rhino variants were not designed by the Mechanicum, they were designed by the Space Marines themselves. The Mechanicum later "decided" to sanctify the designs, rather than see how well holding a feud with the premier assault forces in the Imperium would work. All the major "innovations" were developed to overcome specific battlefield problems. It makes sense that the Traitor Legions haven't developed similar designs, because when faced with an intractable military obstacle, they either a) smack their heads into the obstacle until something gives (World Eaters), or call upon the Dark Gods for assistance. This has not translated well to the tabletop, but that is a failing of mechanics, not lore.

Back on the subject of how to fix Chaos, the first thing that is needed is to nerf ATSKNF. Make it a re-roll of failed Morale perhaps, or a one-turn-per-game Fearless, but as it stands, the Fear USR is entirely pointless, as there's almost nothing which can be affected by it, and those units that can (I'm looking at you, Fire Warriors), we already don't need the help to kill them in melee. The current leadership woes of Chaos wouldn't be nearly as bad if everybody else was in roughly the same boat. The other main fix would be some form of different deployment and/or a better transport. Currently, Chaos Space Marines have one of the worst selections of ways to get from where we are to where we want to be. In the meantime, I plan to keep painting and playing Chaos, because I still like my faction, even when it's forced to wear a "kick me" sign.

[daboarder]

I was talking more about the fact that we're still using reaper autocannons and heavy flamers as state of the art.....as opposed to daemonic equivalents or alternatives.

As to land raider, chaos needs one that works, plain and simple, a pitiful discount for not having PotMS is ridiculous, and furthermore the background has Chaos using Land raiders just as much as loyalists, stick some reapers or ectoplasm cannons on the side, tear out the generator and stick a deamon inside granting more space, wah lah, a chaos raider that doesnt suck

[DarkLink]

Land Raiders in general are overpriced. They're one of the many units that GW refuses to update.

Back on the subject of how to fix Chaos, the first thing that is needed is to nerf ATSKNF.

WTF? Making loyalist Marines suck won't make CSM any better. Nor would making everyone Fear CSM make CSM very good.

[DWest]

The problem is, ATSKNF is just so powerful, and so autopilot, that it warps the entire function of Morale. You get arguments like "since CSM can't get Know No Fear, we need Fearless instead to compensate." Morale measures are so common among some armies, that it no longer feels like a benefit to have a buff such as ATSKNF, but a huge penalty not to. That situation needs to change one way or another.

[DarkLink]

That's... not the point that people like me are trying to make when we say that.

Space Marines aren't even particularly good as they are right now. Yes, ATSKNF is really good, but Marines pay a lot of points for it and it doesn't protect them from being killed outright. In fact, as expensive as Marines are, it only means that your very expensive unit won't spontaneously become useless because you failed a leadership test. It doesn't matter that much if a 60pt unit of Eldar Jetbikes fail a morale check and run, they're only 60pts. When your 200pt unit of Marines fails a test and instantly dies, or at the least becomes completely useless for a turn, that one morale test just took an eighth of your army out of the game.

That's the problem with CSM. They're expensive, but one failed morale check and your massive points investment just became completely useless. The morale system might be skewed, but it's certainly extremely punishing on expensive units. I play Grey Knights, and even ATSKNF isn't always good enough. Sometimes a lost combat means you run when you don't want to and your opponent gets a chance to shoot you when you'd be better off in assault. Or sometimes you fail a morale check and you roll a 12 and your unit runs off the board. It's games like those where a single set of dice rolls loses you the game, regardless of player skill.

Space Marines are pretty well protected by it. But CSM? They get massively screwed by failing any morale checks. That lack of reliability is the fundamental reason no one ever takes any non-Fearless, non-Cultist CSM units competitively. Those units simply aren't reliable. Your opponent kills a couple, and you fail a morale check, and you might have just lost the game. Or your opponent challenges, you can't hit him, your suicidal champion gets himself killed, you fail the morale check, and your opponent just sweeping advanced you.

Nerfing ATSKNF does absolutely nothing to fix any of this. All it would do is make Space Marines just as susceptible to it, except that Space Marines don't have good enough non-Marine units to build a competitive army around. Instead of fixing CSM, you'd just be killing competitive Space Marines.

Now, of course, that's assuming you pretty much completely remove ATSKNF. If you just, say, made it so they no longer ignored Fear checks, or something minor like that, it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. Similarly, you don't have to make all CSM Fearless. Just give them something. Make up their own version of ATSKNF. I dunno.

[daboarder]

Stubborn and a moral reroll would help


For no extra pts.

[Mr.hardrada]

Would it be too much to give CSM stubborn? I would say ATSKNF as I feel that an Astartes is an Astartes but that's just me.

[DWest]

Okay, let me try again: The consensus sounds like "in order to be considered playable, a unit needs to be protected from the Morale rules." That indicates severe problems with the Morale system. What I would like to see is the default being "you can be affected by Morale, but you have tools to help compensate" instead of "if you can be affected by Morale, you stay on the shelf".

I do not like ATSKNF as it is currently written, because it turns off whole sections of gameplay. It's like the argument surrounding Assault Grenades -- if every unit had them, then you might as well strike the entire section about assaulting through cover from the book. I would prefer a game where generally speaking, everybody was affected by every section of the rules every turn, and things which let you reduce or ignore a hindrance were perks, rather than necessities. Do I think I will get my way? Only if I rewrite the entire BRB myself and then convince my local gaming group to play by my rules.

[Daemonette666]

I have not read this thread, or been on this site for weeks as I have been working on projects, for Dystopian wars and my Battletech Tournament, but now I am back for a short while - as I have a new full-time job as a Telco Rigger.

My contribution to this thread is as follows. Of all the original Chaos Legions that fled to the Eye of Terror and other warp storms, only a few have maintained any resemblance to their original great companies. Many have utterly broken down into squabbling war bands, but others are still large enough to be considered a Chapter or Space Marine Company size unit.

Nightlords have a few company sized warbands. Iron Warriors are the most organised with a central body of Warlord type Iron Priests who might fight amongst each other, but also work together to take on other foe. They, in particular have formed a close bond with the dark Mechanicus. The Black Legion is huge and well organised particulary because they take in newcomers from the recently renegade Space marine units, and because they have Abaddon keeping them in check.

Of the rest, the only other Legion to have maintained a hierarchy of command and council body of leaders are the Word Bearers. They do have their large disparate warbands and they all have their own individual goals, and even fight amongst each other at times, however they have enough organisation to group together to perform combined warband operations for a single goal. The World Eaters can not get themselves organised enough to work together, as they will fight amongst their own warband, as well as other Khornate warbands. The Death Guard are a little more organised, but still have age old hatreds between some of their warband leaders, and some have fallen from Mortarians grace. The Thousand Sons are a right off. The best they can do is covens of Sorcerers with a Sorcerer Lord leading them and their Rhubic Marines, and a large amount of cultists. Emperor's Children are more interested in experiencing every emotion and pain possible, and tend to involve themselve3s in war as a distraction or to get more slaves to torture. They might have a few medium size warbands, but no central command or body of warband leaders. The Alpha legion is a mystery, and has never operated in large numbers (not openly), and many of their number are in imperial space acting as spies as is their usual tactic. They might be in squad/ squads leading Imperial Guard or cultists, but it is not really their thing to field full companies of marines.

So of these I would be making legion army lists for Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Black Legion, and Word Bearer's. As to special rules for particular chaos gods, marks, etc. I like the idea of a Mark of Chaos Undivided giving Fearless.

I also love the idea of a drop pod that can get Chaos Vehicle upgrades. I think Mutilators should get something like a biomorph shoulder mounted grenade launcher, or dirge caster type device that acts as assault grenades, and stops enemy within 6" from overwatching (it would make them worth their points then). I think Possessed are not worth the points. Have them given the assault from transports rule, or something lie the Dirge caster/assault grenades to make them useful. Have a few different weapons options for the Landraider. Maybe a Str 6 AP 3 Flamer on the sponsons, Plasma Cannon in the front turret, etc.

The Warp Talons assaulting from deep strike is a good option, but they should get assault grenades as well. As to noise weapons, I would change the Sonic Blaster to being Assault 2/ Heavy 3 Pinning ignores cover and increase the points cost to 5 points. I would also upgrade the standard CSM so that they got their LD 9 base, and all others had their LD increased by +1 to max 10 to bring them back in line and on a par with ATSKNF which is too powerful now. I would also give the standard CSM unit get their additional CCW back as standard.

If you take an Iron Priest as your HQ and declare it is an Iron Warriors force, then all units CSM ans non cultist squads should get fearless, relentless, tank hunters, replace the additional CCW with a combi-bolter, which can then be upgraded to a combi-weapon. They should also have access to a higher ammount of special weapons, and allow Havocs to be taken as both troops and heavy support.

Similar things can be done with the different Chaos Powers and for Legion specific lists. Night Lords - Nightvision, Infiltrate, fear and raptors can be troops as well as fast attack. Word Bearers must take a Dark Apostle, but he gets +1 attack and wound, and makes all cultists fearless.

A few more Daemon weapons that are generic, and carrying on from GWs trend towards tables and pre-game dice rolls, you get +D6 attacks as usual, but their is a D6 roll to determine the additional effect the weapons has - +1 Strength, rending, instant death, poisoned 4+/2+, fleshbane/armourbane, and re-roll and take 2 options ignoring additional rolls of 6. These would be 35 points each to get, and make the game interesting.

Give Obliterators a different version of slow and purposeful that allows them to overwatch. Also increase their max squad size to 5.

Chaos Sorcerors should be made fearless, in fact all Chaos Lords, no matter what they are should be fearless.

Chaos Marks should be changed a little.

Slaanesh - fearless, +1 iniative, and FNP rolled up at the start of the game and successful on a 3+ (combat drugs, and stimulants), but if your roll a 1 or 2 you remove a random model from the unit because of a drug overdose.

Nurgle - 1 Initiative, a new form of slow and purposeful specifically made for them that allows them to overwatch, FNP, attack and defensive grenades, plague knives, fearless.

Khorne - fearless, rage, furious charge, counter attack, and option to take AP 4 chain axes.

Tzeentch - fearless, must be led by a low level aspiring sorcerer, 4+ invulnerable save, 3+ for the champion.
max 3+ invul save for any chaos model. Unit gets the Psychic choir rule as an upgrade option with the aspiring sorcerer as the focal point which increases the units level to a level 2 psyker. If the champion is killed off, then they become level 1, or if he is on his own, he reverts back to level 1. They should also get Psychic familiars as a squad upgrade.

Undivided - cheapest of the marks fearless, unit icon allows both Allied Daemons and friendly deep striking units from the same army to use the icon as a locator beacon.

Most of what I have mentioned will make them a bit over powered, but this can be balanced by making the points cost for units or chaos marks a little higher. Because you are trying to design a legion or mark specific army list, you will get benefits against certain types of enemy, but still be vulnerable to others. I.E. an Iron warriors list would be great against vehicle heavy formations, and armies that have lots of MCs and terminators, but hordes will just rip them apart. Emperor's Children will rule over infantry/ horde based armies, but vehicle and flier heavy armies will kick their butts. and so on. Add to this the fact that the CSM armies will be more expensive, they will have less models, unless you want to spam cultist pr use cultist to pick the numbers up.

I know others will not like my ideas, but everyone is allowed to have their opinion. So do not start picking on anyone who disagrees with me, but do not start picking on my ideas and going off your head about it. Use logical reasoning and discuss why they would not be suitable (if you think they are too OP).