Codex Chaos Space Marines MKII

[DrLove42]

-all CSM have VOTLW straight off the bat.

No. Cos the codex represents the difference between VotLW and recent traitors. maybe they should have the Ld buff to begin with, and VotLW do something else

-Lucius, Typhus, Kharn and Ahriman should have eternal warrior. Pretty over guardsmen with meltas popping a 260pt special charactor.

Maybe. very few people get Eternal Warrior, it should stay that way

Ahriman should count as having a familiar, a Master 4 10,000 yr old psyker with the knowledge of Magnus isn't going to blow himself up, Eldrad is the baseline for lvl4 psykers

Eldar, the Masters of all phsyic powers have no defence. Suck it up.

All loyalist vehicles should be present in the CSM list, minus their machine spirits

You can argue that someone from a recent traitor legion should have access. But for simplicity...there'd be too many (some Land Raider vareints from the Heresy would be nice - If Techpriests can modify new varients surely the dark Mech can)

-Dino-bots go to Codex Daemons.

Nope, I like them. You might not like the models. but they represent something that isn't done - warp vehicles

-Warlord Traits are useless, and the challenge rule should only count against other space marines

This is good though.

You contradict yourself a lot. You say you don't want a book that is just Loyal marines. And yet want the same stat line, you want all the same vehicles...want rid of the unique vehicles, want equivilent wargear....

[jgebi]

on the topic of night lords HQ I vote Decimus - Prophet of the Eighth Legion as there is very little to no lore for him but he becomes their unifer if you believe void stalker, so not sure what it would do though but he is a Prophet which would make for a neat power

[Polichronis Pepekis]

5 man cap so that its not op 10 man double wounded 2+ 5++ and mark is too much none whould play against that and the cost is ok 55 maybe a reduction on marks 2-3 pt per model on all marks so that its viable

[biteymcrunrun]

Heldrake +30pts, baleflamer upgrade +10pts

Warpsmith allows helbrute, maulerfiend, forgefiend, defiler to be taken as fast attack

Chaos Lord with jump pack allows one unit of raptors or warp talons to be taken as troops

Dark Apostle 1-3 per HQ slot

Chosen can take infiltrate or scouts for +2pts (or maybe more, not too sure)

Helbrutes cheaper

Champion of chaos- must either challenge or not fight in the combat at all (ambition vs self preservation)

Possessed count as beasts

Mutilators far cheaper

Thousand sons- two wounds but only 6+ inv, tzeentch sorceror increases this to 5+


All missile launche can take flak for +5pts

Mark of nurgle for obliterators =10pts, all other marks cheaper

[Kaptain Badrukk]

@Mckenzie
I won't beat you about the head with a repeat of DrLove's post, but here are some alternatives instead.

VOTLW
All CSM cost whatever they would have with VOTLW and have +1LD and Hatred(SM)
VOTLW - Gives Preferred Enemy SM and costs whatever VOTLW now costs.
That gets you what you think is right AND allows us to have some fairly badass veteran marines
Ahriman and other ICs
I'm with you on Ahriman's familiar, provided he costs 15pts more.
Eternal warrior on the other hand should be limited to 1-2 characters/dex so seems ok as is.
Taking Loyalist stuff / Ditching Deamon Engines
As far as possible we need to stay divorced from the SM codex. Hence the idea of characters driving legion list bonuses rather than army selection. This separates the two codecies, making marines "Chapter with a character focused" and CSM "Character with a warband focused" instead.
Warlord Traits and Challenges
I like the challenge mechanic, although I agree that all special characters should be proof against both ascension and spawnhood.
It was mooted earlier that maybe you should be able to issue challenges where you select the victim to balance out the impact a little. Or make auto challenge a VS IC only thing for your ICs. Call it "Beneath my notice!" or something equally contemptuous.
Legion specific warlord traits would be a good idea, they're definately going on the list!

@Polichronis
You can have ten man Meganobs with combis for 50pts a pop with 2+ 5++ (you need Grotsnik, but you can do it)
And you can 10 man 2+ 3++ termies.
I don't see why paying 500pts for this unit is so bad compared, but at the same time who'd ever bother?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

we are cooking with gas now people. When I get home from work tonight I'm going to scour this and turn it into a V1 document

[Demonicsarge55]

Heldrake +30pts, baleflamer upgrade +10pts

Warpsmith allows helbrute, maulerfiend, forgefiend, defiler to be taken as fast attack

Chaos Lord with jump pack allows one unit of raptors or warp talons to be taken as troops

Dark Apostle 1-3 per HQ slot

Chosen can take infiltrate or scouts for +2pts (or maybe more, not too sure)

Helbrutes cheaper

Champion of chaos- must either challenge or not fight in the combat at all (ambition vs self preservation)

Possessed count as beasts

Mutilators far cheaper

Thousand sons- two wounds but only 6+ inv, tzeentch sorceror increases this to 5+


All missile launche can take flak for +5pts

Mark of nurgle for obliterators =10pts, all other marks cheaper

I like some of those but the heldrake to be 210 points with a bale flamer? Really?

[Mr Mystery]

5 points for Flakk? Got an issue with Fliers by any chance?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

In fairness I always wondered why it was so expensive. 10pts for something you may never use, and which is the only potential AA in you codex always struck me as overly priced. And no, I don't have an issue with fliers

[Anggul]

Flakk Missiles should be 5pts in every codex. Their current cost is just far too much, you would never buy them right now, not with anyone.

Mutilators are going to be hard to get right because Terminators already perform the same role but can also have useful guns. There just isn't much point in them existing.

I think VotlW should stay the same. If it didn't give you an Ld bonus it would only help vs Space Marines, and thus you would never buy it because it would be a huge waste of points against anything else. As it is it's good against everyone, and better against Space Marines to give you the edge and make you less likely to be run down.

I think I've thought of a good way to make them a bit less susceptible to being run down but not as resistant as loyalists. After all they're much more likely to flee the battlefield out of selfishness rather than sacrifice themselves as loyalists would, but they're still going to be more determined in their cause than most. What if we gave them something similar to the old 'No Retreat' Know no Fear rules? They don't get completely routed, but if caught they take wounds equal to how much they lost by. This would represent some of them sticking around out of rage, pride etc., but some of them legging it out of self-preservation and not really caring what happens to their 'accomplices' left behind.

Stealth and Shrouded when Warp Talons appear sounds like a great call. I would probably also make them a little cheaper.

Revert the marks of Khorne and Tzeentch back to their previous incarnations, they were nerfed for no reason and left Nurgle and Slaanesh as clearly superior in almost all circumstances.

Let units other than the basic troops have the 'cult' rules, i.e FnP for Nurgle, Furious Charge for Khorne, SaP and Inferno Bolts for Tzeentch. Slaanesh don't really need it so much, the defining feature of Noise Marines is Sonic Weapons, and I think being able to take Havoc squads of Blastmasters would be a bit crazy. Doom Sirens for Lords and Raptors would be cool though. This is something pretty much everyone has wanted for years, and seemed a no-brainer, yet was still not done. For some reason Plague Marines in Power Armour have Feel no Pain, but gaining the great prestige of wearing Terminator Armour or hopping onto a Bike makes them unable to have it. Don't let Cultists have these things obviously, just the Chaos Marines. Maybe Cultist Champions, as they might be granted unholy strength or resilience. I don't really know what a Slaanesh Cultist Champion would have though, as he couldn't use Sonic Weapons. +1Ld due to sense-addled madness maybe.

Lucius could do with Rending so he at least stands a chance vs 2+ armour, having Shred means he's actually pretty likely to do alright, and maybe a 4+ invulnerable save.

Helbrutes need fixing like Dreadnoughts do. I've probably repeated my proposed fix to Dreadnoughts many times on BolS, so I won't do it again here.

Defilers should probably be AV13 like Soulgrinders, and reduce them by 25pts so that buying the Flails brings them up to their current cost. The Flails really make them so much better in CC.