Most powerful/influential Chapter

[Lord Anubis]

This is a hard discussion to have without defining "power" and "influence".

The Alpha Legion has tons of power and influence in the gothic sector and Segmentums Solar and Ultima... just saying.

[Spamthulhu]

As far as which chapter could overthrow the universe. It would have to be Ultramarines due to their numerous successors and their possible agreement with whatever reason the Ultramarines offered.

As far as Chapter influence. None really hold sway with the Imperium in any way except the refounded Minotaurs if I understand their fluff correctly. The Imperium has founded a few chapters to be loyal to their efforts. The Gray Knights still fight for their own goals not those of the Imperium.

No Single Chapter could dominate a system without the Imperial Guards support. They would eventually fall to the might of the imperium. THat was why they were controlled and kept from being Legions was to avoid any possibility of that happening. The Templars may have a shot if they took all of their strength and put it at one location but even then they would fall eventually.

It would take most of the Adeptus Astartes turning on the Imperium together to gain any real foothold. Maybe like 5-6 chapters pooling their resources could put up a stalemate situation where the Imperium doesn't wish to lose the resources it would take to dislodge them.

[sfshilo]

Yeah going to have to say Space Wolves as much as I don't like them...

Armageddon? They fought the Gray Knights to a draw. They've repelled multiple attacks from their homeworld from massive invasions, with under strength garrisons. They have a dread that fought with Leman Russ and the Emperor. They will absolutely smite anyone morally corrupt, and defend those that need defending no matter the cost.

The Ultramarines have been beaten up I don't know how many times at full strength. Their successors are not that great to begin with, and in the fluff are usually corrupt, inept, or destroyed completely by their enemies because of stupidity. Also, they allied with the Tau, how messed up is that? They live no where near the eye of terror either.

You throw down with Cadians and Space Wolves in the fluff setting and things get DONE. Enemies bleed, victory is had, or they take out a good portion of the enemy before going down.

TLDR Fenris all the way based on history alone

[Phototoxin]

I love salamanders - die hard B@st*rds, blood angels - savours from on high. But in terms of actual power I think the minotaurs - well equipped, lots of numbers, high lord of terra backing...

[stevetheduck]

if we're talking about Fluff, then you have to look at the Imperial Fists, First Dorn created the Imperial palace then he and the Fists defended Terra during the Horus Heresy, and then when the 2nd founding came they formed both the Crimson fists; which are noted as the best Xeno fighters in all the chapters, have been called upon 3 times to destroy traitor chapters by the high lords of Terra, got their homeworld bombed out by Orks and have come back from the brink of destruction; they also created the Black Templar's, who i don't even need to tell you about. but the Celestial Lions is another succession chapter that has some awesome fluff that should be noted. they stood up to the inquisition and were almost completely destroyed for it on Armageddon, but they survived and are rebuilding, that's 2 chapters that are defying the odds, 1 that is going out and bringing the Emperor's name to it's enemies and the parent chapter that sparked it all defending Terra and all the other important key Imperial worlds, forge worlds and sectors. that's a lot to say about 1 Patriarch's Gene-seed.

[Luckee22]

If we consider how pivotal the loyalty of the Cult Mechanicus was for the Horus Heresy, then any chapter with a strong connection to Mars is going to be a big contender. In this vein, I think the Iron Hands are a definite contender. The benefit from a technological superiority similar to the Salamanders. And have a ready made web of forge worlds which supply and support them.

But they also have a wide array of successor chapters to pull from. Having a bunch of successors means that they remain in good standing with the Imperial bureaucracy while still having a loyalty attachment to to a larger body of marines who each have their own web of allies and assets. This is a failing of many of the larger chapters (Space Wolves, Black Templar, etc.). Having the love of the people is dandy and helpful for extended occupations but less relevant for a shock and awe military force that isn't going to wage wars of attrition and occupation. Having the backing of the upper levels of the Imperium is where the real power is. Not to mention that the Imperium has 10,000 years of experience in brutal and oppressive occupation of Human worlds.

The greatest strength of the Iron Hands lies in their forward thinking. They are an organisation that embraces the idea of progress. Their bionic fixation means that they don't buy into the humanity first mentality of the Imperium. They are deliberately improving themselves (beyond even the advances of their own genetic make-up) to a level that exceeds their own Space Marine brothers.

So they have the tri-fector that the Horus Heresy was looking for. The loyalty of the Mechanicum, the support of key Imperium officials, and a personal physical edge not possessed by the other chapters.

[SuperDann]

Many of the other First Founding Chapters can also claim illustrious histories and great power too, but isn't the whole point of Guilliman's Codex that no one body of authority in the Imperium ever be strong enough to overpower and take charge?

Exactly. I thought the whole point of breaking legions down into chapters was to stop individuals wielding the might of so many marines. Guilliman would be turning in his stasis field if Calgar started calling on all the succesors for the Ultramarines own ends. A chapter is supposed to head the chapter master and the Emperor and none else.

Also, 2nd fouding chapters will obviously be much closer to the first founding chapter than any from the 3rd onwards. Thdy may revere the Codex Astartes, but that doesn't mean they revere (read- adhere to) the Ultramarines themselves. Food for thought.

[sps62487]

I think blood angels have a very good mix. sanguinius was loved by all. they even have a day to hinor him and have statues as well. he was downright loyal to the emperor. the only one to not fight or resist on meeting his father. he was pretty strong and a very good fighter. defense of terra anyone? khorne had a bad time.

dante hss major military influence. also believed that dante will be incharge of the final battle to defend humanity.
the bloodangels whipped a huge orc army off thier home planet with just dreadnoughts
they are honorable but the flaw makes thwm a much feared enemy.

they are very quick rapid insertion. wolfs are the counter attack force.

[nathaneal246]

If we consider how pivotal the loyalty of the Cult Mechanicus was for the Horus Heresy, then any chapter with a strong connection to Mars is going to be a big contender. In this vein, I think the Iron Hands are a definite contender. The benefit from a technological superiority similar to the Salamanders. And have a ready made web of forge worlds which supply and support them.

But they also have a wide array of successor chapters to pull from. Having a bunch of successors means that they remain in good standing with the Imperial bureaucracy while still having a loyalty attachment to to a larger body of marines who each have their own web of allies and assets. This is a failing of many of the larger chapters (Space Wolves, Black Templar, etc.). Having the love of the people is dandy and helpful for extended occupations but less relevant for a shock and awe military force that isn't going to wage wars of attrition and occupation. Having the backing of the upper levels of the Imperium is where the real power is. Not to mention that the Imperium has 10,000 years of experience in brutal and oppressive occupation of Human worlds.

The greatest strength of the Iron Hands lies in their forward thinking. They are an organisation that embraces the idea of progress. Their bionic fixation means that they don't buy into the humanity first mentality of the Imperium. They are deliberately improving themselves (beyond even the advances of their own genetic make-up) to a level that exceeds their own Space Marine brothers.

So they have the tri-fector that the Horus Heresy was looking for. The loyalty of the Mechanicum, the support of key Imperium officials, and a personal physical edge not possessed by the other chapters.

The loyalty of the Mechanicum! I'm pretty sure their loyalty to the Imperium was as much in question as the legions. There is a book on the whole civil war on mars, and in the other books of titan legions and Mechanicum planets siding with Horus. Plus throughout the books of the BL there are countless references to the mistrust of the Mechanicum by all other arms of the Imperium.

Plus I don't think the Salamanders or the Iron Hands have many founding chapters due to Istvaan.

[gcsmith]

Exactly. I thought the whole point of breaking legions down into chapters was to stop individuals wielding the might of so many marines. Guilliman would be turning in his stasis field if Calgar started calling on all the succesors for the Ultramarines own ends. A chapter is supposed to head the chapter master and the Emperor and none else.

Also, 2nd fouding chapters will obviously be much closer to the first founding chapter than any from the 3rd onwards. Thdy may revere the Codex Astartes, but that doesn't mean they revere (read- adhere to) the Ultramarines themselves. Food for thought.

Actually, if you consider how many of the Emperor's direct commands that Guilliman overturned (no librarians on the front lines being one) and the fact he was stabbed by the same sword that corrupted Horus. Then it looks a lot more like Guilliman securing his own power in the vaccum created by the Emperor being in the stasis field than it was on protecting on the imperium.