6th Ed Space Marines Discussion

[Arkhan Land]

No more of this boute bashing you either learn to speak ultramarese or git out of this country!

seriously though Roboute is important but by and large I think the whole thing about 40k is the idea that everybody in this universe (i mean everybody) is lain to waste over the course of the thousands of years-long battles, even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields, though your average imperial citizen doesnt get a stasis field and massive temple...

[The Sovereign]

even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields

The fact that as soon as I read this my mind immediately went "Gasp! Heresy!" is a sign that I need to take a break from 40K and Black Library.

[Mr Mystery]

So more or less familiarised with the book now, and I'm impressed. I'm not seeing anything as massively overpowered, or indeed 'must have', beyond personal tastes which will vary from player to player.

In particular, the new additions don't over compete with the existing ones, so people with a Marine army from even 2nd Ed can just port it over, adjusting the points accordingly without the need to buy the latest 'must have' unit. And that even goes for the AA tanks, as Marines have ready access to Flakk missiles in their squads (Tactical, Scout, Devastator etc), so you arguably don't need the dedicated AA, though it is pretty tasty toys they got for that

[DarkLink]

• Ultramarines – The most flexible tactics, Ultramarines can choose from three Combat Doctrines over the course of the game either making them better in assault, shooting or moving and shooting.
• White Scars –get a big boost to bikes – they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain Tests, get +1 Strength to their Hammer of Wrath and virtually everything gets Hit & Run, especially useful as Combat Tactics is no more.
• Imperial Fists – Basically the army gets Bolter Drills, they can re-roll to hits of “1” with bolt-weapons. Their Devastator and Centurion squads also get Tank Hunter!
• Black Templars – In Challenges Black Templars re-roll to hit and get rending. They all get Crusader which lets them run to the enemy quicker and Sweeping Advance further.
• Iron Hands – Probably our favourite – they get Feel No Pain and all vehicles and characters have It Will Not Die. Techmarines then get a bonus to repair rolls. If you’re playing a vehicle heavy army these could be rather good!
• Salamander – re-roll saves when wounded by flame weapons they also re-roll to wound with their own flame weapons. All Sergeants gain a master-crafted something of their choice.
• Raven Guard – they all have Scout and get Stealth on the first turn. They get better jump packs too.

Lots of good options here. Poor Black Templar, their CT just kind of sucks. Raven Guard isn't all that great, either, since Assault Marines still aren't very good, but you can still build a nasty army around Scout/Stealth.

• Armour of Indominus – This provides a 2+ armour save and then for one turn an Invulnerable 2+ save! Oh, and you get Relentless too...

The Armour sucks. Just take the Shield, there really aren't any good guns on HQs worth spending that many points to get Relentless. The Burning Blade is pretty good, but when it comes down to it you should probably save points and get a Thunderhammer instead, assuming you're running the Shield Eternal.

Centurion Assault Squad – New toys! Basically these are super-terminators. T5, 2 wounds and a 2+ Armour Save is going to take some shifting. At first they don’t look too much of a big deal in assault with just one attack but this quickly becomes two for two weapons and three on the charge. Siege Drills are also not unwieldy so they could be good for Dreadnought bashing and other slow armoured targets.
They have Slow and Purposeful which will be frustrating as it means they can’t Run into position and neither can they fire Overwatch. They’re not a cheap option but should last a while on the table. First impressions are that they will need a Land Raider to work but we look forward to hearing how you fare with them!

THSS Terminators still trump them, unfortunately. Without an Invulnerable save, any threatening enemy assault units you'd want to send these guys after would be more scared of THSS Terminators.

Centurion Devastator Squad - The same stats as the Assault Centurions the Centurion Devastators come equipped with Hurricane Bolters and Twin-linked Heavy Bolter. They can be upgraded to have Missile Launchers in their chests and a Twin-linked Lascannon or Grav-Cannon. Our favourite option is the Grav-Cannon as they can fire 5 shots each and the Grav-Amp re-rolls to wound and to penetrate. It is short ranged at 24” and so again a Land Raider wouldn’t go amiss to get them in close.

Best gun in the game. Overpriced as they are, Land Raiders are greatly underrated. Drive forward, dump the Centurions, shoot stuff, and hide a scoring unit inside to grab an objective later. Plus, they're dedicated so you can make them scout.

Hunter – Another new toy. This fires a single missile that if it misses a flyer or flying monstrous creature will continue to try to hit them in subsequent turns. It has Skyfire so only fires Snap Shots against ground targets. Basically this is a must-have if your opponent has flyers but at 70 points isn’t going to break the bank if your opponent doesn’t have any. Be warned though that it will do NOTHING that game.

Stalker – This has a similar anti-flyer them to the Hunter. Again it’s limited to flying targets but has the option of firing 4 twin-linked shots or 8 single shots. Those 8 single shots come in handy against ground targets as there are so many shots some are bound to hit! The Stalker is probably the better choice of the two new vehicles unless you are sure your opponent has flyers when the Hunter will come in handy.

Yeah, Stalker's better. The Hunter would be solid if it were a 2-shot gun. At one shot, the odds of it missing or of the opponent making their cover save, or failing to roll an Explodes or Immobilized result are just too great.

[The Imperial Fist]

Maybe Rogal Dorn had a better idea; except when it came down to it he tried to get himself and his Legion killed in a series of suicidal revenge missions rather than putting the human Imperium back together.

He only engaged in one suicide mission. And though the current codex has missed this out, that - the Iron Cage - was to cleanse the soul of his legion, and to come out the other side ready to accept the codex. Before that the Legion scoured the galaxy of all traitor outposts remaining after the Heresy. They were driven by rage and mourning, but not suicidal. While at this time pappa smurf was too busy playing politics and trying to start another civil war.

[Truculent Sheep]

No more of this boute bashing you either learn to speak ultramarese or git out of this country!

Quantity does not equal quality...

seriously though Roboute is important but by and large I think the whole thing about 40k is the idea that everybody in this universe (i mean everybody) is lain to waste over the course of the thousands of years-long battles, even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields, though your average imperial citizen doesnt get a stasis field and massive temple...

Warhammer 40,000 is about the clash between postmodernism and romanticism, or - latterly - existentialism. I'm not kidding.

[Truculent Sheep]

Yeah, but this is the basic background. The basic background has always had RG being unspeakably heroic.

Except that what the text conceals and what it really reveals tells a different story.

That hasn't changed and isn't going to. The Black Library does the subtleties, not the Codices.

Codices are there to mollify their (assumed) fanbase. The Black Library's take is the real story.

The thing is, you can say "Guilliman gets an easy ride" and "maybe there was a better way", but according to the background - which is remarkably consistent - he doesn't, and there wasn't.

Or rather, he came on top of a political squabble through blind luck and his successors then proceeded to write history in his favour.

Maybe Rogal Dorn had a better idea; except when it came down to it he tried to get himself and his Legion killed in a series of suicidal revenge missions rather than putting the human Imperium back together.

Dorn was driven to what he did in order to prove his loyalty - a tragic state of affairs indeed, and in part due to Guilleman's absolutism. Dorn wasn't a politician; RG was - more's the pity.

Corvus Corax locked himself in his tower. Vulkan's legion was shattered. Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus were dead. Who could have done anything except Roboute?

You mean the same Robute who had been humbled by the Word Bearers and bested by the Alpha Legion? Or the Robute who was willing to plunge the Imperium into another civil war just to prove a point?

It's also worth noting that many of the Legions ended up embracing the CA on their terms or just giving RG the finger and going it their own way regardless. Only Dorn, irony upon ironies, rolled over and submitted, and that was only after RG's antics (and the Iron Legion) had left him a broken man. RG's success is more down to the Ultramarine legion providing the bulk of the successor chapters. Imagine Windows prevailing over the far superior Mac O/S in the 90s, and you may well have your parallel.

One day, hopefully in the Horus Heresy series or if they continue into the Scouring, we'll have more of the subtlety, nuance, and conjecture.

And RG will get the bashing he deserves.

And that'll be an awesome thing, and we'll be able to have these discussions more fully. As it is, though, the background is the background.

There is no game without the background, no battles without the story.

[El_Davo]

Anyone else notice on pg 18 they mention the rainbow warriors? am i the only one who thinks thats awesome and wants to start a rainbow warriors chapter now?

[madlib]

I asked a similar question in the rumors thread prior to release of 6th edition SM codex, but I'll ask it again here and ask for a little further clarification that I don't think I got in the old thread.

What tactical niche do Centurions fill that Terminators don't already fill? The answer I got was that Centurions are MC killers, but aren't Terminators also capable of killing MC's? Keep in mind that I'm strictly a lore background nerd and haven't played 40k since 3rd edition. The reason I ask this is because I want to understand Centurions from a fluff perspective and I'm assuming GW's intended table top roll is where they want them to exist in the fluff too.

[Mr Mystery]

S9, AP2 CC weapons with Armourbane, that aren't Unwieldy?

Wade into Carnifex, rips it's legs off and ram them up it's chuff before it can strike back? Pricless!