Daemons 2000 pts - competitive

[Admiral General Aladeen]

Hey all, first post here ive been lurking a while..

Im looking for criticism on my daemons list, im a fairly competitive player so looking for a good list in a mostly TAC list. The exalted rewards will be aiming for Riftbringer and one will take the portalglyph probably the LOC unless he rolls well... Overall we have 5 ML3 FMC's they will roll on what ever tables i see fit, likely using one for change to get ffot.

After a few iterations of the list I think ive finally decided on this:


Lord of change - ML3, Exaulted, Greater

CSMP - Tzeentch, Armour, wings, ML3, Black mace, Gift of mutation

Cultists x10
Pink horrors x 12 - Iridescent
Pink horrors x12 - Iridescent

Tzeentch Daemon Prince - Armour, wings, ML3, Exaulted, Greater
Tzeentch Daemon Prince - Armour, wings, ML3, Exaulted, Greater
Tzeentch Daemon Prince - Armour, wings, ML3, Exaulted, Greater

[chicop76]

Horrors are much better with a herald. The chicken list is something I seen done a lot. The main flaw isif you are faced aginst heavy anti- air armies like Tau they can put some hurt on your list. Te problem with 5 MCs is that they can't multiassault. Typically if they kill a squad too easily and left in the open to be shot to death.

I think some heralds and screamers would really help the list.

[Admiral General Aladeen]

Horrors are much better with a herald. The chicken list is something I seen done a lot. The main flaw isif you are faced aginst heavy anti- air armies like Tau they can put some hurt on your list. Te problem with 5 MCs is that they can't multiassault. Typically if they kill a squad too easily and left in the open to be shot to death.

I think some heralds and screamers would really help the list.

It doesnt quite work that easily to say just add some heralds and screamers

if you take out 1 DP which I would consider, you have enough points for ONE herald, not two. So you get 1 herald and have about 125 pts or so left what do you do with that? bolster a troop squad? add another 90 point squad? take a squad of screamers with the herald and have a super mini screamerstar, well the DP can cast the same powers that the herald can + he can beat face and doesnt need a squad to be meat shields.

is one herald and one squad of daemonettes or horrors better than one kitted out beast of a daemon prince? Personally, I dont think so.

[chicop76]

Let me try this again.

A fully decked out daemon prince hits at around 350 points. Around 300 points with no rewards and max out to level 3 going tzeentch.

The reality of your list is you have only 3 scoring units. Heck with some armies it's rather easy to kill off those 3 scoring units in turn one. Which leaves you with 5 flying MCs with 4 that have a +3/+5 invulnerable and a +5 invulnerable save.

The way your list is designed you can't really do anything until turn 2 and higher, unless you are using Tzeentch shooting powers, but since princes aren't that easy to kill I am gussing you will be mainly trying to go fr biomancy for iron arm, which limits your other psychic choices.

First off you not or didn't mention running True Names for the +3 invulnerable, with extra dinivination you can possibly get a +2 re rollable invulnerable save on your guys, but you have a chance to get a +6 invulnerable instead or use divination to bring you back to +5. Which means Fateweaver would be a much better choice than your LoC.

Going back to the monster flying list spam. It's only effective against certan armies. As Tau seems to be the army of choice nowadays it's a good chance you will face them, same with Eldar. The problem I see since I play both Tau and Daemons and faced similar list like yours it's not that hard to defeat for tau, if they know what they are doing. The daemon list that give me problems are hounds and screamers since they are under or at the same cost of a prince. Honestly I fear 20 models with 40 wounds wit a possibilty of a ton of buffs vs a flying Tzeentch prince with only 5 wounds.

Keeping in mind that iron arm and endurance is a 1/6 chance of getting. Meaning if you went all biomancy, not including the Loc which can't. On average you should have 2 models with iron arm and endurance, if you went level 3 on all of them.

The hearld add on which is roughly a 1/3 of a fully decked out prince may be restricted to divination and Tzeentch powers, but can be master level 3 and improve your horror shooting. Seeing that hearld screamer stars are a viable build which with 200 points you can almost get a full squad. Which means switch a prince for a herald and screamers is a very duable option.

I understand the thoughts on a riftbringer LoC which I do run sometimes myself. However the way your list is being run I would make a riftbringer prince instead, biomancy can give out d3 extra attacks. Too bad the black mace model can't get riftbringer right.

Anyway no one in their right mind would allow a black mace prince on the board. Typically it will get lit up like a x-mas tree, another reason for the possible +2 invulnerable save.

The main issue with running too many princes is that you can't multi-charge with them, another problem is when they fall out of the sky they are not that hard to kill. Not saying I can wipe your army from the board, but out of experance with no hounds or screamers as an extra threat I can probably take out 3 princes before you can vector strike or assault me. After you assault my two squads you have to pray yu didn't wipe them out or the rest of my army will easily rapid fire the remaining two princes to death.

The dilimna against a viable Tau army is you can't vector strike all day, with skyfire and a ton of grounding shots it's not a viable tactic. If you assault you can be left out in the open on the Tau player's shooting phase. Not even mentioning all the over watch shots if you do decide to assault. Also you can't stay back and shoot since that would be the same issue with vector striking, not as bad since you can stay out of rapid fire range.

However with hounds and screamers you have to target them over the MCs. The reason being those units can multi assault. Meaning that 4 squads of fire warriors can be tied up with one squad and you can follow up with your princes. It's a real pain since they can literly tie up a good chunk of your army. The winged birds can only tie up on unit at a time. It's a win win situation for you. I can elect to shoot the screamers or hounds which are easier to hit, or waste marker lights, which kinga gives my army skyfire in a way on top of units that can skyfire, and shoot your flying MCs. If I kill hounds/ screamers off I have 4 mcs in my face. If I target mcs than I have hounds and screamers in my face tying up units and blocking line of sight to my rear shooting units and than have to worry about princes that survive killing my tied up trops or attacking other units.

It's a reason that heavy screamer or hound list do better than heavy MC list. Not saying the MC list is a bad list, it still win tournaments too. The problem with the MC list it's one of those list tha take advatage of armies that are not designed to deal with it. Hince it does well. An example is deathguard. Against certain armies death guard does really well untill it runs into armies with a ton of high strength weapons and weapons that can deny feel no pain and armour saves.

Going 3 MCs and a few other units make your army more verstile and harder to deal with.

I am gussing you are going Tzeentch themed hince the screamer suggestion. If theme doesn't matter than I would say use daemonettes since they can cover the board quickly and ca be an extra wave to deal with.

Typicallythe list I run I send in hounds than on turn 2 I can assault with daemonettes possibly, depends on assault and run rolls and my princes. Turn 3 I can positively say my daemonetes can be able to engage.

I use portalglyph to spawn rear guard objective holders and riftbringer to ds units on objectives.

Typically I can wipe out armies in the 3rd or 4th turn which makes holding objectives a secondary function.

[Admiral General Aladeen]

I appreciate the long well thought response but I must say I dont really agree with a lot of it. The question at hand is still: 1 herald + squad of screamers vs 1 kitted out daemon prince. Target priority is still the same, or less so for the screamers which lets them focus more on the remaining 4 MC's The damage output of a herald + squad of screamers is the SAME from range as a daemon prince except the screamers and herald will NEVER see combat unless they get charged for what ever reason (not likely).

You complained about the amount of troops in my army but then openly acknowledge the use of riftbringer and portalglyph which can easily give me more troop units than you can physically start the game with to capture objectives or assault something. And the durability of the princes but failed to mention the likelyhood of getting 4+ FNP or other defensive options from gifts/powers, likely I would go telepathy on some bio on some and take a single change for primaris on all of them.

I likely wont be taking the grimoire in this type of army list is really isnt that great unless you had an absolutely useless exaulted roll. giving one model a bonus save isnt very spectacular, and not having fateweaver to re-roll it when it fails is very not spectacular, my original list had fate and still no grimoir because putting it on one model is still not that great, they will just shoot one of the other 5 mc's that dont have it unless it ****s up and makes my save worse. This piece of wargear is best used on dogs/screamerstar.

Another point I would like to make is that daemons in basically every iteration of competitive play are a hard counter to tau and I really dont believe that you would be saying "Its not that hard to defeat" after I was done playing against you.

[chicop76]

I faced daemon list several times with Tau and I will say again they are not that hard to beat, helps that I play daemons.

I din't mention things like +4 feel no pain, or +1 wound with it will not die simply due to you having a 1 out of 6th chance to get it. With 2 greater it's a 1 out of 3 chance. Heck vs Tau I had both on a Bloodthirster and he still got blasted out of the sky rathr easily, glad I had hounds.

Well with screamers you have two deployment options. You can deploy them turn one move 12" and than turbo over units 24", which isn't hard to rake units turn one. When you turbo you will have atleast a +4 cover save with re rolls on one, if you manage invisibility you have re rollable +2 cover saves rather easily, or +2/ +3 invulnerable saves on them with true names. Either way they are not that easy to kill off. Turn 2 or the following turn assults is quite easy for that unit to pull off. Oh and the second deployment is for them to ds and than turbo over units 24". 9d3 strength 4 hits hurt after awhile and you can control the direction the unit is taking wounds. Yeah I would say it would be easier killing a prince than wiping out a unit of screamers that are the same cost of the prince, you have to take two screamer units to add to one fully decked out prince.

The reason I do well against these type of list is probably due to the fact I have maxed out slots, but troops which are 5. Counting body guard and a transport seperate I have 22 differant units in my army vs 8 units. Which means you will have an easier time earning VPs, but in other missions I have 5 or 8 differant scoring units. Assuming all your princes reach point a and never die or anything else starting turn 2 you can kill 5 units which it will take you to turn 5 for your princes to wipe out the entire army. Realistically I can easily blow away 2 princes with a third possible leaving 2 which can't really do much. The hoor fire isn't impressive and the cultist are there for scoring. Which leaves the portalglyph which drops off only d6 troops.

At this point to even really have a chance you need riftbringer which is a game changer. The fact I know riftbringer only works in combat and allows yu to spaw 2d6+3 troops. I am not going to stupidly let you get into combat with that.

The only way I can really see that list doing well vs a good Tau list is if the board happens to have a ton of line of sight blocking terrain. Cover saves and being in the air is pretty worthless vs Tau. I mean seriously all I have to do is fire with my low out put shooters first to ground your guys and then open up with my high output shooting. The way my list runs on average all my light firing units can ground 3 princes leaving my heavy units to open up and kill them. Even if they don't fall out of the sky I have enough skyfire to easily kill 2 princes in the air. That being said riftbringer and mace models would be heavily targted over everything else. Only a complete moron is going to let those two models in their ranks, or they happen to not have anything to deal with that list.

Again riftbringer is not automatic and the glyph from the portalglyph is silliy easy to destroy with 1 hull point, heck it can destroy itself if it lands in difficult terrain. Which means you should rely more on the chosen troops you have than on easy counterable gimmicks.

There is a reason why I run grinders and skull cannons, they can take out units that are killing my flyers.

Anyway going to true names, um if your rift bringer have a +2 re rollable invulnerale save on top of endurance, iron arm, invisibility, etc. I can't do anything against that. It's retarded stupid and I just have to kill your true name bearer off and let you spawn extra guys. Yes true names works 2/3 of the time and have a 1/3 chance of making your guy suck. Besides the many reasons to play Fateweaver making true names work is the main reason instead of a 1/3 chance of not working it turns into roughly a 1/6 chance of not working. Not stating the super obvious why Fateweaver is played, he can do a lot more than fix true names or help with the warp storm table.

Bottom line this is a gimmic army which relies on high tougness and flying to carry it through. If any army can counter flyers and have a lot of anti- toughness weapons yu will have trouble. Units like daemonettes, and Harlequins would be bad units to assault.

Anyway thinking about this argument I remember reading a Tau vs Daemon report which had a similar daemon list which lost rather badly to a Tau list, my Tau list is differant from that one. However I can pretty much achomplish the same feat, actually easier since I use skyrays and he doesn't if I remember correctly. Anyway I think looking at battle reports with similar list would be helpful. It does win tournaments, but it's not balanced. When I say balanced I mean it is built with all differant list in mind. It's better to have little of everything than be good at one thing. Sadly most people don't build list with this one in mind, so with that said you will do well against them. I however build list with this in mind since it does win tournaments, same with necrons, other Tau, Eldar, Tau/ Eldar.

Another problem is vs daemons too, but grinders would be your only issue. However being grounded is your biggest worry over all.