Night Lords Home-brew Supplement Beta Version 0.1

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I'm going to start this Thread (or in fact series there-of) with a thank you.
A few weeks ago I asked people what they'd do to improve the CSM codex as a community FAQ, which led in a roundabout BigRed inspired way to the idea of getting some legions supplements out there before GW do to fill the gap before GW publish. Hell if GW steal even one idea from them I'd be thoroughly chuffed!
So the thank you is to everyone who went on there and gave their 2 cents in the way I asked, by contributing rather than just shooting down ideas. May your names be etched on the walls of posterity!
Obispal
DrLove42
Eldargal
Demonicsarge55
Siris Le Osiris
Polichronis Pepekis
McKenzie James
jgebi
biteymcrunrun
Anggul
Mkvenner
Dwest
Mr.hardrada
Bigred
DrBored
Apalosaa
Archon
DarkLink
Mr Mystery
daboarder
Tomgar
DWest
Daemonette666
lattd
phreakachu
To those of you who used the last thread as a place to argue, and at more than one point start calling each other names I ask you to not do so here, you're better than that.
The attached document is there to be playtested.
I did a fair whack of math-hammer on it, and even ran some quick tests, but it is a BETA version.
Put out there so you can TRY IT in games and provide FEEDBACK.
Please don't download it, read it, and immediately get on here posting about how awful it is.
Play as it, or against it FIRST.
Then come back and say "Blah Blah, caused Blah to happen in my game when Blah, this is good/bad because"
I'll wait until trends start appearing in actual results and THEN i'll start updating it.
I'll be doing this with the other 3 non-cult armies over the coming months, then i'll move onto cults.
Be patient and constructive and as a community we can add something good to our hobby until GW get around to replacing it.

And here it is;

[YorkNecromancer]

I started reading this with an open mind. Then I got the very first rule and closed that mind right up. Sorry, but the Sons of the old Legion is nuts. Night vision, Shrouded, Fear, Hatred (Imperium) AND a Ld re-roll FOR TWO POINTS per model? (Others may disagree but the "only at night" part in no way mitigates the lunacy of this rule BTW)

No. Just, no.

No.

The Ld re-roll thing is one I just don't get. CSM are not courageous. Not in the sense that they're afraid, but in the sense that they value self-preservation above anything else; they're not the Imperium. They're not loyal to anything except their chosen concept. IMO a (and I'm sure every Chaos fan will disagree with me) a Ld re-roll is insanely powerful and deeply unrepresentative, especially for two points, and especially with all those other rules folded into it.

EDIT: Just read your Warlord chart, which basically all but guarantees the game is at night. 2 points for Sons of the Legion is now offically Broken As All Hell.

Jump Pack costs for Chosen should be higher, or else their access to special weapons should be restricted. Death Company pay 15pts for Jump Packs, and are roughly concomitant to Chosen power levels. I'd put the cost at 12 to 13 points per model.

Helstalker Boltgun should be 25pts.

Skin Tabard shouldn't cancel out Fearless and ATSKNF rules.

Claws of Kurze are more powerful than Horus' weapons in HH: Betrayal. That's just ridiculous.

I don't want to be horribly negative, but I realise I have been; sorry about that. I mean, this is a nice idea, but IMO it reads like a list of things designed to make the Night Haunters da koolest marinez evar, able to crush everything in an assault-based mono-build. While I applaud the creativity, I would never EVER play against this list for the reasons I have outlined above. Fluff-based rules should be effective and flavourful, but represent a sideways move, not a simple advance in power, i.e: for every rule you gain, you should lose something of equal power.

If you do just want to have something that is way more powerful, you should compare the rules costs to something that current exists. By all means, have your insanely overpowered lightning claws. But remember, Horus is 500pts. If I was to allow those things in a game, they would be a minimum of 100 points and even then, almost definitely Apocalypse only.

These are my thoughts.

[DWest]

Couple of comments:
-first, you credited me twice in the contributors.

-second, Warlord Traits. I think a couple of the base CSM should still make it onto the list; I would personally place Master of Deception in slot 2, replacing that Warlord Trait, and Flames of Spite in slot 6. This is not so much because I think Soul Blaze is awesome, but because we're attempting to mimic a Games Workshop codex, in which case there's always going to be something in there which makes you go :/ , although hopefully the really awful things will end up getting purged.
For slot 3, I would say "grants the Warlord the Hit and Run rule, and any round he wins a Challenge, he may re-roll the Hit and Run die."
For slot 4, change to something like "whenever the Warlord or the unit he is with destroys an enemy unit, he may upgrade 1 friendly Icon of Chaos within 12" to also grant the effects of a Dirge Caster. Re-roll if you have no Icons in your army." My reasoning is this: static tokens on the board are going to be avoided, unless you plop them directly on the objectives, and even then I could see a unit camping close enough to jump on the objective at the end of game, but far enough away to not be Dirged. Furthermore, this ties in to the theme established for CSM and 6th in general of "my main character model is special, and makes a big impact wherever he goes". The wording should be such that anything, even a transport, counts for the unlock, which means a Jump Lord w/ Raptors could melta down a transport, buff their own icon, and then charge the spam that had been in the can, denying them Overwatch.

In general, I like the idea of the Night Lords making the Night Fighting rule their thing, but I think it should be toned down a bit, and/or more of a "bonus if you get it", rather than "you're based around having it". With that, I think Sons of the Old Legion, instead of granting Fear and Shrouded, should grant Stubborn and "During Night Fighting, enemies treat this unit as being [6 or 12 inches, not sure yet] further away then it actually is."

Lastly, with the Hatred(Imperium) rule, I think that's getting a little broad. Maybe something like "Contempt for Mortality: against Human units, Night Lords count as inflicting +1 Wound for CC resolution, and +1 to Sweeping Advance rolls." possibly also eliminate Cultists as a Troop choice, but you may take 1 Raptors (and maybe Warp Talons) per HQ choice as a Troop. Most of what I've read makes me think the Night Lords should work as an elite army, rather than a horde.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I admit I laughed as soon as I read this.
You've successfully done exactly NOT what I asked.
Oh and FYI, I'm a Word Bearers player, don't much care for Nightlords.
I'm going to break down you complaints in the hope you see where I'm coming from, but (although I do appreciate the attempt to take part) I'll not make any changes without any playtesting.

Sons of The Old Legion
The LD re-roll is good, and may be under-pointed, but it's not AS good as you think. Statistically the highest impact of this will be on LD rolls in melee. The rest of the time you're barely going to use it. But in the combat situation that's where the rule starts to make sense.
Can you see a chaos marine RUNNING and getting caught and butchered by guardsmen with bayonets because they lost one more marine than the guard lost guardsmen?

The Nightfight thing, do you know the full rules for Night Fighting in 6th edition? It's already in ALL missions in the core book, and EVERYONE gets shrouded at 24"-36" range and stealth at 12"-24", all it does is give you a better save closer to.
The HIGHEST impact that the warlord rolls will give is allowing you more control over, or get an extra turn of, nightfighting.
So at most you're getting 1 turn of +2 to your cover saves better than your opponent.

Fear ain't all that. It really isn't.

Jump-pack for chosen brings them in line with Vanguard, who are a far more equivalent unit than deathcompany.

Helstalker - When someone has playtested it I'll take your points stuff under advisement.
Skin Tabard - Yeah, that's what it's for. And bear in mind it won't work in daylight which is guaranteed for a minimum of half of every game.
Don't have betrayal, but again bear in mind that in a lot of games you use them and you get horribly mangled. and they cost nearly as much as another chaos lord.

All of that aside, play test it and then critique it. I've done the math hammer a lot, and believe me until you use it (and actually use all the 6th edition rules the way you're meant to) you'll be surprised by how it works.

[YorkNecromancer]

Can you see a chaos marine RUNNING and getting caught and butchered by guardsmen with bayonets because they lost one more marine than the guard lost guardsmen?

Yes. Because that is what a failed Ld roll represents. If Night Lords were meant to be immune to failed leadership, they would have the Fearless rule.

The best army in the world can crack if they suffer enough casualties. Also, you think Chaos Marines are a lot braver than I do; I regard their leadership as being significantly lower than their Imperial peers (with the exception of the World Eaters, who are plain suicidal, and thus ineffective soldiers). This is a difference of opinion; you like the idea of fearless Chaos lunatics. I do not. The Ld re-roll's brokenness stands IMO.

Jump-pack for chosen brings them in line with Vanguard, who are a far more equivalent unit than deathcompany.

No, Warp Talons are the Vanguard equivelant. You have misinterpreted; Chosen are Sternguard. Giving Sternguard Jump Packs would be broken, and totally counter to their intended purpose (seriously, if you could give Sternguard jump packs for 7 pts each, you would never see anything but Crimson Fists forever). Same for Chosen. Giving Chosen access to special weapons and jump packs is too much, unless the points for jump packs are significantly higher. A Chosen squad of 5 with jump packs and melta guns has an effective 24" threat bubble, and can then assault afterwards with 3 attacks each on the charge. for an additional 35pts That is nuts.

Did you factor threat bubbles into your mathhammer, or did you just crunch basic vs MEQ stats? Because if you left out threat bubbles, you really have not factored in anywhere near enough detail.

Also, why did you not include the mathhammer as an addendum in the pdf so we could actually see what you based this on? As a working design document rather than a finished piece, that would have been helpful.

Skin Tabard - Yeah, that's what it's for. And bear in mind it won't work in daylight which is guaranteed for a minimum of half of every game.

IMO it shouldn't be for that; I am personally not a fan of rules that are designed to cancel USRs. Also, I cannot think of many examples of rules cancelling out other USR's; for example, nothing outside of Apocalypse (where the rules are even more streamlined) trumps Eternal Warrior - "removes from play" effects work under a different principle.

I think this is important because it means that every player knows what their rules do and what they don't and can plan accordingly. I would suggest find another way to achieve the same effect - say a -3 to Ld if the bearer is within 6", -2 to Ld if the bearer is within 12".

Don't have betrayal, but again bear in mind that in a lot of games you use them and you get horribly mangled. and they cost nearly as much as another chaos lord.

IMO they're still overpowered. Items like this create herohammer deathstars which are fine for Apocalypse, but tedious for standard games.

And as I said, no way am I playtesting this; I don't need to to see it just doesn't work as it stands. You could rework it, but you seem to be coming from a "two guys fight in a white room with no variables" perspective, which I think has flawed your mathhammer.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

And as I said, no way am I playtesting this; I don't need to to see it just doesn't work as it stands. You could rework it, but you seem to be coming from a "two guys fight in a white room with no variables" perspective, which I think has flawed your mathhammer.

Well then, good stuff. Thank you for missing the entire point of this thread.

I'd argue with you but where-as all i've done is take 2 weeks to refine the adjustments, run several play test scenarios (including 2 full games) and check the balance against the rulebook (that's what I think of as "doing the math-hammer")
I can see how reading it and immediately making a knee-jerk reaction without trying it gives you a fuller understanding of the impact these changes would have.

Trust me, try it, then come back and say whatever you like, because with real data we can make it better. But I think you'll try it, and provided you've been playing your usual games using the rules as written in the 40k scenarios, find that it's much more balanced than where your gut reaction started out.

[DWest]

Okay, ran a couple of quick tests, "theoreticals" to use the Ultrasmurf lingo. For reference, I used a whiteboard, marked off to 48 x 72 cm; a cm-marked ruler (good old BFG whipping stick!); magnetized "blobs" scaled to represent units; terrain was drawn on the map, as replicas of actual terrain I use on my home table, so that I could reconstruct any really sticky situations; a dice-roller app; and an understanding assistant player to be my opponent.

What I've learned
-Having to choose between Sons of the Old Legion (I'd like a fluffier name, but it works) or MoN/MoK does not favor the Sons rule, because;
-I failed to get Night Fighting at the beginning of the game about 1 in 4 times. Both times that happened, my NLs didn't live to see if it kicked in at Turn 5.
-I like the Spear, although by the time I got stuck in and actually wiped out a unit to move on, there was nothing convenient to chase down to use the AP2 awesomeness. I'd like to see Rampage on that bad boy, but that's just because I like the Rampage USR.

Haven't tried jumpy Chosen yet, but I suspect they won't be that bad.

Finally, if you really don't care for Night Lords, I'd be willing to take them over so you can focus on a Legion you prefer.

[daboarder]

No, Warp Talons are the Vanguard equivelant. You have misinterpreted; Chosen are Sternguard. Giving Sternguard Jump Packs would be broken, and totally counter to their intended purpose (seriously, if you could give Sternguard jump packs for 7 pts each, you would never see anything but Crimson Fists forever). Same for Chosen. Giving Chosen access to special weapons and jump packs is too much, unless the points for jump packs are significantly higher. A Chosen squad of 5 with jump packs and melta guns has an effective 24" threat bubble, and can then assault afterwards with 3 attacks each on the charge. for an additional 35pts That is nuts.

no just no, chosen are not even in the same ball park as sternguard. further more your effective range is taking into account a maximum charge roll, thats not effective range. effective range would be +7'

I'd drop sons of the old legion and make votlw compulsory, afterall these are nightlords not chaos renegades.

packs on the chosen are fine, york you don't exactly see BA honour guard special weapon squads being OMGWTFBBQ!

I'd say, nightlords get fear (all the time) and shrouded during nightfight. (though it could be cool to swap this for a veil of tears style range check)

I'd change jump tactics to: a lord with jump packs unlocks raptors as troops, gives the option for all jump without making it a useless gimmick or necessary.

first warlord trait doesn't need that first line, all games are nightfight, I'd lift the trait straight from the brb that lets you choose nightfight instead of the 3+ roll.

I'd drop master of stealth (seems far to clunky)

flesh icon is cool, but I think they need to be targetable ala the portal glyph. perhaps just change it to basically give the warlord a dirge caster.

traits 5 and 6 need to be changed completely to close to the same thing and impinge to much on the first one.

relics: needs to be "must take items from below" iif your running nightlords you dont get the option for the brand.

OLW: weird clunky, drop it, doesn't do anything you can't already do.

Helstalker, I like it, doesn't meet the efficiency of the brand but its still kinda cool. people wont run it but thats not an issue.

heartseeker is cool

bump skin tabard buy 5 pts

those lightning claws need re-written, its far to likely to roll a pair of ones to hit given how many attacks a lord can have, how about making them a pair of regular lightning claws but with the daemon weapon special rule

and I'd change the cry of the night haunter, to close to the tabard and legion traits.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Okay, ran a couple of quick tests, "theoreticals" to use the Ultrasmurf lingo. For reference, I used a whiteboard, marked off to 48 x 72 cm; a cm-marked ruler (good old BFG whipping stick!); magnetized "blobs" scaled to represent units; terrain was drawn on the map, as replicas of actual terrain I use on my home table, so that I could reconstruct any really sticky situations; a dice-roller app; and an understanding assistant player to be my opponent.

What I've learned
-Having to choose between Sons of the Old Legion (I'd like a fluffier name, but it works) or MoN/MoK does not favor the Sons rule, because;
-I failed to get Night Fighting at the beginning of the game about 1 in 4 times. Both times that happened, my NLs didn't live to see if it kicked in at Turn 5.
-I like the Spear, although by the time I got stuck in and actually wiped out a unit to move on, there was nothing convenient to chase down to use the AP2 awesomeness. I'd like to see Rampage on that bad boy, but that's just because I like the Rampage USR.

Haven't tried jumpy Chosen yet, but I suspect they won't be that bad.

Finally, if you really don't care for Night Lords, I'd be willing to take them over so you can focus on a Legion you prefer.

Thanks Dwest! You actually did what I was hoping for. Your tests ran out much like mine, the night fight stuff ran its course as expected. And with 50% of games increasing the chance of you having some night fight to enjoy it gives you some chance to enjoy it without forever forcing opponents into the dark.

I'm going to see this through, and use what I learn to make the next one (Alpha Legion v0.07 is currently undergoing testing), but if these are successful enough to get adopted extra hands for errata etc would be very welcome.

Daboarder
Thanks for staying involved.
I understand the stance on warlord traits but hear me out. They actually all do very different things to Nightfight.
The use of the "always nightfight" rule means that for non-core scenarios this lord forces nightfight even when it's not there. This is especially awesome in zone mortalis and boarding missions as all the lights suddenly go out. Very thematic!
Operates in Darkness - Much more likely to get early nightfight OR have longest end nightfight.
Strikes By Night - gives a potential +1 turn of nightfight at either end and increases likelihood slightly, but not a massive amount.
Lord of the Dusk - practically guarantees at least turn 1 nightfight BUT lets you delay it at in the hope of getting longer nightfght at the end of the game.
Oh and everyone who can have VOTLW is obliged to as stated under the Marks and Veterans of the Long War.


You'll see more of the Sons of The Old Legion rule in other supplements, it's intentionally blandly named because it will span all the non-cult armies. Cult armies i'm still ironing out, they're a lot trickier to get right.

OLW lets you jump-pack apostles, sorcerers and warpsmiths (which you can't do) and is the only way to get mastercrafted in a CSM list. That allows legion relic weapons from humble bolt pistols to mighty powerfists
It's actually the most game-changing thing there because it shifts the role of three characters AND allows some sub-optimal weapon choices like lightening claws a little extra punch.

[phreakachu]

Firstly, thanks for the nod.

Secondly, IMO, night Lords shouldn't get access to the Chaos Marks. It's fluffed that the NL's arent Devout @all, they dont particularly follow Chaos, even as a Pantheon. I think that limiting the access to the Gods Specific Marks would balance them out a deal.

Change 'Sons of the old Legion" to "Mark of the Night Haunter". It sounds cooler.

Skin Tabard should cost more for what it does: It's impressively Dirty. whith a capitol D.

More to come. Phreakachu OUT