Favorite "Secret of the 40k Universe"

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Emperor>>>> Primarchs>>>>> Custodes>>>>> Astartes>>>>> Human.

[FastEd]

I'll have to read through First Heretic then I guess. Didn't even realize they had stats in RT though. I've seen custom models around for the, but did GW put out models for them back in the RT days?

I'd also like to thank Lord Lorne Walkier for his help, adding so much to the conversation, providing a well thought out argument, explaining it in detail, and his eloquent use of the > sign. I applaud you, sir, and award you one, still in box, brand new, internet.

[miteyheroes]

I'll have to read through First Heretic then I guess. Didn't even realize they had stats in RT though. I've seen custom models around for the, but did GW put out models for them back in the RT days?

Everything had stats in RT! The Custodes described there wore black cloaks with leather breeches and boots, and naked torsoes. They had tall imposing helmets, and carried things that looked like spears but were in fact lasers. Crazy times. The basic Custodes were M 4, WS & BS 5, S & T 4, W 2, I 5, A 2, Ld 8. Their Int, Cl and WP were also 8, because that was Rogue Trader when leadership was complex...
To compare, basic Marines were M 4, WS & BS 4, S 4, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 1, Ld (and so on) 8. So Custodes had +1 WS, BS, T, W, I and A. Their main disadvantage was that Custodes had no armour. Of course, in the Heresy Era Custodes have armour that's even better than Marine armour. So Custodes are super-awesome in the Heresy.
I don't remember seeing any official models? There may have been. There were a few pictures in 1st and 2nd ed.

Incidentally, if you want to just flip through to see Custodes vs Marines compared in First Heretic then p.125-128 is a key section. Some Marines see Custodes fight for the first time. At first they're blown away by how good they are. But then they see something's wrong, before realising that they're not working as a group- they're warriors not soldiers, lions not wolves.
In the same section, the way Custodes are made is described: "Custodes were sons of a more rarefied and time-consuming process- the biological manipulation that gave birth to the Emperor's guardians bred warriors who weren't shackled by bonds of loyalty to anyone except their Imperial overlord".

[LEGION]

LOTS of good stuff in this thread. There is one thing i didn't run across though while reading it. In one of the Inquisitor game books there was a faction that believed that the Emperor was in fact ALREADY DEAD. And the reason they have to feed 1000 psychers to the throne is to create the psychic scream of the astronomicon. That totally blew my mind when I read it.

Now for the supposition part:
I for one believe the Emperor IS an old one. Perhaps the last remaining one. In any case people keep asking how could he be fooled or defeated if he was so powerful. Its simple really, the old ones were NOT INFALLIBLE. In fact all the 40k history is built on the failings of the Old Ones. They made the Orks and that didn't work, then the Eldar and that failed and all the other times they screwed up. This could simply be chalked up to the fact that he was blindsided by his own perfection. A lot of times when we feel superior and everything is going along smooth, that is when we miss the little thing that bites us in the Butt.

Also along the lines of the Deceiver is Cegorach line. I as a necron AND Eldar player I have to agree they are the same. I personally don't think the Deceiver likes the other C'tan at all and wants them all dead. That way he can have free reign to plot and scheme as he sees fit with the universe. And to that end he has some kind of alliance with the old one(s) and/or the Eldar Gods and actively aids the Eldar Harlequins to fight both the C'tan AND Chaos. He orchestrated the development of the Tau. I'm pretty sure the Deceiver is fighting on his OWN side and wants to take the whole cake after the End Times. The best way to do that though is to help the little races defeat all the big Gods.

Another thing that I didn't see touched on is that I don't think the Eldar gods were actual gods at all, but in-fact the Old Ones that merely presented themselves as such. Kind of like Farscape and the Go'auld. How do you, as a superpower interdimensional being present yourself to the race that you just created. "Uh hi, we are your gods. This is what we need you to do for us." It is possible that they used their psychic powers to APPEAR as the Eldar expected them to look. Or merely over the millions of years the actual likeness of the old ones was morphed by the Eldar stories so that they generally appear as Eldar. Kind of like how Jesus appears white to most people but in Korea he looks Korean.

[Michael_maggs]

dont know if its already been said but the ultramarines are traitors
not chaos worshippers but userpers to the imperial throne

heavily suggested in age of darkness that guilliman was planning his own rebellion once horus is defeated

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Kind of like Farscape and the Go'auld..

I think you refer to Stargate...

dont know if its already been said but the ultramarines are traitors
not chaos worshippers but userpers to the imperial throne

heavily suggested in age of darkness that guilliman was planning his own rebellion once horus is defeated

Really? Never heard that one xD

[Michael_maggs]

I think you refer to Stargate...



Really? Never heard that one xD

its still at the mad conspiracy theory stage but...
Age of darkness
rules of engagement: Gilliman states they would have to do something that could label them as traitors and come to blows with the other loyalist legions
the Iron within:Iron warrior loyalists are recruited to show guilliman how the iron warriors would destroy (or strengthen) the imperial palace; this may not be so bad at first glance but the ultramarines are unable to reach terra and as the loyalists were besieged for over a year)
Strange weapons: Guilliman summons the lion to his side instead of returning to terra to which the primarch retorts "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire"
the first heretic
Lorgar suggests that the 2nd and 11th legions were assimilated into the ultra marines
soul drinkers
Dorn is stated as the staunchest opponent of the codex astartes and presents the soulspear to the souldrinkers chapter to remind them of their loyalty to their primarch; from this i infer this was to prevent the VII legion from being to fractured in the aftermath of theCodex asterties crisis (see dorns entry on lexicanum) where Guilliman imposes his decrees on the legions and denounces dorn as a traitor for refusing.

its my opinion that Guilliman lead a coup once his main rivals were subdued (the emperor and horus dead, the other legions severly depleated) and the legions were split to prevent a serious opponent from emerging in the future; the XIII legion sucessor chapters could be guaranteed of their loyalty through psychoindoctination (codex astarties; rules of engagement)
it should also be noted that Guilliman is seen as the Imperiums greatest hero despite the being at any of the main battles of the heresy and if you take legion at face value and believe the alpha legion are still loyal it can be infered that their continued hatred and wish to destroy the sons of Guilliman is an attack on the userping imperium of ultramar

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Ahhh I have seen the Soul Drinker bit before . I love the idea that Alphas might still be loyal too :L. It's a clever mad conspiracy, especially as Guilliman (literally) rose to the challenge of the writing the Codex Astartes

[bfmusashi]

That Commoraugh is Ankh-Morpork but totally dark.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Dunno if this was mentioned with regards Abaddon (sorry, can't be arsed to read the entire thread) but surely the gold skinned giant is Lorgar?