My Country is Officially Stupid

[Rissan4ever]

In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
-Theodore Roosevelt

My cousin, who's working a minimum wage job, had no access to health insurance before the AFA. Now, she has access to health insurance. It's far from perfect, but it's better than nothing. Socialism isn't a dirty word, nor is universal healthcare. It works pretty well for most of the rest of the Western world. I don't see why it can't work here.

[ElectricPaladin]

Aenir and DarkLink, with all due respect - I assume that you are both very bright, I know that - you are making two important mistakes:

1) The "majority" that opposes Obamacare doesn't exist. The election established that. Healthcare was a major issue in the election, and if the majority had opposed Obamacare, we would not currently have a President Obama.

2) The amount of harm that is done by a Federal shutdown is incredible. I'm not just talking about setting our economy back. I'm talking about people who will have to work without pay, or who will not be able to work in order to earn their pay. And we're not just talking about highly-paid government employees, we're talking about security guards and park rangers and other people who basically live paycheck to paycheck. For ****'s sake, it was a close call making sure the military got paid during this interregnum. More locally, we are talking about people in federally subsidized housing who might be kicked out into the streets.

I will never support a politician who endorsed this kind of behavior, regardless of their politics. If the Democrats are ever the underdog party and one of them pulls this bull****, that mother****er looses my vote for the rest of his or her political life.

When you are the opposition party, your job is not to be obstructionist. Your job is this:

1) Work to mitigate the harm you see being done by the dominant party by forcing compromises (note: not by blocking **** up so the entire country suffers the equivalent of an intestinal blockage).

2) Try to include your ideas in small ways, or on a local level, in order to convince the people of the rightness of your ideas.

3) Do your ****ing job and make sure that basic **** gets done: the bills get paid, the highways get fixed, the laws get debated and adapted as needed. Regardless of your politics, that's what I pay you to do.

Government shutdowns are not ok. They are a slap in the face to those of us who are doing ok and a kick in the nuts to those of us who are weakest and most vulnerable. This is not an acceptable political tactic. It is the equivalent of political terrorism. It's holding a gun to the economy's head and shouting demands. It's inexcusable, and I will never support it in any politician for any reason.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure i linked to an article with some statistics on it not too long ago. Maybe in the healthcare thread i started. Anyways, something like 53% now oppose obamacare, which is a lot higher than it was a year or two ago, compared to like 40% supporting it, and 70% "didn't understand it". And literally every single person I've talked to has been like 'wtf is up with this, I can't figure out how this is supposed to actually do what it claims it will'.

We certainly could use some healthcare reform. I don't know if obamacare is the reform we need, though.

[DarkLink]

It's some pretty majorly flawed logic to assume that just because Obama got reelected, that obviously means that healthcare was the only important election issue and that the majority of americans support obamacare specifically.

Nor am i in the camp that assumes the government never does anything useful and a shutdown doesn't matter. I know from my personal experience that none of America's infrastructure would exist were it not for the government, or it might exist, but buildings and bridges and levys would be breaking down left and right, because contractors don't care about that. Or more precisely, they only car about their little slice of the pie, but not about what slips between the gaps. If it's not their responsibility, it's not their problem. It's the department of transportation's job to make sure the job gets done right.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm pretty sure i linked to an article with some statistics on it not too long ago. Maybe in the healthcare thread i started. Anyways, something like 53% now oppose obamacare, which is a lot higher than it was a year or two ago, compared to like 40% supporting it, and 70% "didn't understand it". And literally every single person I've talked to has been like 'wtf is up with this, I can't figure out how this is supposed to actually do what it claims it will'.

We certainly could use some healthcare reform. I don't know if obamacare is the reform we need, though.

I'd love to see those statistics. I'm curious to read them myself.

[Rissan4ever]

Obama did win reelection, and from that, it can be inferred that the people who voted for him (myself included) are in favor of his policies. I don't see how that's flawed.

However, the election was pretty close, as I recall. In my view, that means the country is split down the middle, more or less. That's why issues like gay marriage, immigration reform, and healthcare reform are so hot. If things were clearly one way or the other, there wouldn't be so much controversy.

[Denzark]

I like [url=http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/im-safe-on-board-pull-up-the-life-rope]this thought[/url] from the late Roger Ebert on the subject:

It is "socialism." Again, yes. The word socialism, however, has lost its usefulness in this debate. It has been tainted, perhaps forever, by the malevolent Sen. Joseph McCarthy, who succeeded somehow in linking it with the godless Commies. America is the only nation in the free world in which "socialism" is generally thought of in negative terms. The only nation in which that word, in and of itself, is thought to bring the discussion to a close.

It's not - socialism is a dirty word in the UK. I appreciate universal healthcare - but I would make people work for their welfare. Am I a socialist? Think not. What is that Thatcher quote - 'The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend'.

[Chronowraith]

Polls rarely show the whole picture though. Of that 52% you quoted, 7% of the people dislike the AHA because it doesn't go far enough to improve healthcare access for all (i.e. the proponents of a single payer system). Additionally, another poll indicated that if you asked "Do you approve of Obamacare" 46% of the respondents responded negatively (older poll than the one you are quoting). However if asked "Do you approve of the Affordable Healthcare Act?" only 36% of the people polled responded negatively.

Polls usually give only enough information to support whoever is giving the poll and the questions that are asked are usually biased enough to poison the well. So saying that the "majority" of Americans disapprove of the Affordable Healthcare Act based on a single poll is a bit misleading.

I'm not saying the healthcare is perfect... it could likely use some work to make it less confusing and less burdensome to navigate, especially for businesses. However, it's better than the alternative in my opinion (which was nothing).

[url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/01/healthcare-obamacare-affordable-care-act[/url]

[Mr Mystery]

Especially when some mad old nutter imposes short term self offs and raises the cost of living.....

But she did kind of have a point. Socialism doesn't mean free. But I firmly believe a government should look after its populace. After all, that's their job. NHS does that. State pension does that. Social security? It should be there to help you when times are tough, but in the UK it's gone a bit beyond that, with people now living off it long term.

Much as my fellow lefties have knocked Osborne's recent one, it does have merit.

[ElectricPaladin]

...but I would make people work for their welfare.

Minor point from BoLS's resident works-with-families-in-one-of-America's-most-stricken-cities (WWFIOOAMSC for short): most of America's poor are what we call "working poor." They have jobs, but the jobs don't pay enough for them to support their families without assistance. You can bring that up the next time someone argues against raising the minimum wage. Making sure these families can get health insurance - most of those crappy jobs don't offer it, and it hurts the adults and the children in those families - will help a lot, too.

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine. The myth of the "welfare mom" with a dozen kids, no job, and no interest in having one is just that - a myth. All the moms I know in my blighted inner city neighborhood work their ***** off. It's hard to acknowledge that America is such a grossly unfair place that people can work hard and never get ahead, but it's still true.