list tayloring vs balanced lists for friendly games

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

this is a long standing debate we have been having for years in our gaming group. So to lay down the foundations i would say its semi split perhaps. we have a one guy in particular who writes a single list up and plays that list for a year or more. Then we have some who tend to tailor a list to a particular opponent. then there are those amongst who try to make a list that more balanced. ( i will let it be said that i tend to take a list that aim's for balance and run it several times before i make any small tweaks. i tend o always run a solid core and then work on changing a unit or 2 at a time for better balance.)

I know from my own perspective that i have more fun trying to come up with a balanced well rounded army. i find that they tend to be a lot of fun and have a variety of units. my approach to list building has always been to maintain a strong core of troops and Hq(s) who support those troop choices. After i have my core i focus on my remaining slots which tend to be heavies fast attack and elites. That usually leaves me half of my points total to work with. most lists included roughly 50-60% troops and hq's.

I was just wondering on what the community consensus was? Do you guys tend to go more towards tailoring to a particular opponent? or do you come up with a more well rounded list and then change it when you think it needs changed or after its proven that it's weaknesses need to be changed.


i will say we may or may not have told the list tailoring player who he was playing or what he was playing only to change it up at the last minute for shenanigans. It is quite entertaining to watch some one who thinks they know their opponent and then watch as they get annoyed when their playing against another army all together.

a firm example of this is the ultra marines player who thought he would be playing against a horde ork army so he had as many template and heavy bolter's as he could get his hands on. only to look across the table and see an army army of mega nobs... it was priceless to say the least. (this goes to you list tailorer's when you have a list to beat a specific opponent that list suddenly does crap when faced with something unexpected.

[AdamHarry]

I think you've answered your own question. But to be a bit more vague -- It really depends on your local area, size of player pool, and what you consider "friendly" games.

those things really vary based on location and group. Here in Austin, we have a pretty good size player base and on game nights when the BoLS crew shows up at the FLGS to play some games you never know what you could end with. People may be trying new stuff out, tweaking familiar list for an up coming tourney, or just looking for a PUG. You never know what you are going to play against. On the flip side, we also will play at home with a smaller group some times to specifically put lists through it's paces vs a bad match-up (a tailored list basically). Those games are bit more relaxed and friendly than say a tourney game, but there is still an air of competition as one player is trying to push themselves. It really depends on what you are going for.

I don't think there is a way to really settle your debate unfortunately. I would assume with the larger gaming groups that they would be in a similar position I am. If you only have 4 people in your group and if you are playing them every weekend, I would assume the lists would tend to move toward the "tailored" style as you can tweak more for the "meta" in your group.... Unless everyone in your group has a dozen armies and you never know what they are bringing.

[Wolfshade]

This was kinda discussed here: [url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?20945-Why-Is-List-Tailoring-A-Bad-Thing[/url]

Within my gaming group we know which armies we play and we have a fair idea of what sort of army our opponent will bring. So there is some tweaking, but then sometimes the list is completely different.

[Thaldin]

I've always thought this was kind of an interesting topic. On one hand, I can understand the benefit of having a single all-comer's list, but on the flip side... I have always thought it was silly not to take an army that works for the mission (general term, not the randomly generated one).

I've always considered it silly that if you have the "Intel", wouldn't any commander worth their salt make sure they had the proper tools they needed?

So for me it's a mixed feeling... Love having a ready, balanced list for spur of the moment or just general type games at a store... But if I were to be in some sort of campaign or battle where I had the "intel" to make better troop choices, I feel that it's perfectly acceptable (and by having the intel, I mean pre-designed type stuff, not knowing, "Hey Carl always runs a biker army", that's what the balanced list is for).

-Thal

[SotonShades]

For me, it depends a lot on the group. If one player literally only has one 2k list and can't make any changes, it's a bit unfair for everyone to tailor their lists so he is unlikely to ever win.

At one of my gaming groups, we arrange who is playing who over the course of the week between sessions. Almost everyone has 2 or 3 armies, and a lot of folk do pick their codex and pick their lists depending on what they think their opponent might bring (very funny when they get it wrong, like preparing for an elite mech list and end up against a horde), but because so many could bring such varying lists, something reasonably balanced is generally the best way to go.

At my other gaming group, we turn up, see who is there and what size force they have and work out who to play on the fly. There is no point trying to work out what you will be playing beforehand, because there is literally no way of knowing, so again, reasonable balance is the way to go, though a lot of players tend to go towards more themed lists or styles of play.

What I really don't like is when you turn up to a game, agree with your opponent and he asks what you are playing with, then writes a list specifically to beat it. Fair enough if you are ramping up for a tournament and have asked for a real challenge, but in a friendly game, it's hardly fair on the other player. At the FLGS I used to play at, there was a guy like that, so when I played him I'd say I was using my normal Space Marine list, which might then turn out to be almost entirely made of terminators, or possibly an ork horde. Everyone else thought it was hilarious, he decided I wasn't worth playing against (even though he probably still won half our games or more) and ended up getting fewer and fewer games because he was no fun to play against.

[Dave Mcturk]

ban the really obnoxious choices that dont fit your group... by consensus... everything else goes !

[knas ser]

To me, choosing your army is an intrinsic part of the game itself. The moment of the reveal when you both share army lists is one of the mist fun moments when you see if your opponent has outsmarted you, or you they, or if there's just some hilarious mismatch going on. To remove that entire strategic element from the game by just fielding generic lists against each other - where is the fun in that?

A common misconception is that list tailoring is about gaining some unfair advantage. It is not. It is a poker game where you and your opponent are evolving and trying out different strategies. I would be pretty bored facing opponents who fielded that same list against me time after time, the occasional minor variant. I want to have to adapt to surprises and try new things.

And when people have to field all-comers lists, variety goes down the toilet.

Like I say, there are misconceptions, usually because people don't see the difference between list tailoring being part of the game and trying to gain an unfair advantage. For example, I love list tailoring and knowing the opponent's list in advance would be cheating to me. And they me, of course. And naturally there are cases where it can become unfair. For example this is an expensive hobby and if someone was very constrained in what models they could use and another spent their way to success by buying things tailored which their opponent could not adapt to, that would be dishonourable.

But in the general case, it has always been part if the game to me. I am an old first edition player now returned and it was a great surprise to me to find some people now regard this as tantamount to cheating. Might as well play chess and always use the same dozen opening moves. There is no difference to me. Choosing a good army and second-guessing your opponent is a part of the game and lots of fun.

thought he would be playing against a horde ork army so he had as many template and heavy bolter's as he could get his hands on. only to look across the table and see an army army of mega nobs... it was priceless to say the least. (this goes to you list tailorer's when you have a list to beat a specific opponent that list suddenly does crap when faced with something unexpected.

I find that funny when it happens to me. You have to be pretty self-important not to be able to see the humour when you miscalculate a gamble like that. It's happened to me and I've done it to others. It's fun.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

It is certainly a lot of fun when you see some one with a tailored list who comes up against an opponent they were not expecting. like me i have a boat load of armies so what i try to do is play a different one each month. my game last weekend was up against my buddy who tailors his lists. He thought he was going to be playing my buddies bad moons. well when said buddy didn't feel like playing he ended up facing off against my mech world eaters. needless to say he did not end up having an enjoyable game. i believe the highlight was a turn 2 assault by kharn and friends that whipped out a unit of assault marines. things got worse from there. his list was built to gun down a horde or orks and lacked a lot of punch against power armour and had very few anti tank options. so my Armour was able to take to the field with very little fear of reprisal.

Yet it was funny to watch his tau loose to another friends vostroyan force as well. the vostroyan player is the guy i mentioned earlier who builds a list and will run that same list until he paints up something new or the points level changes. this is pretty much his same vostroyan list he has run for a year plus now.

[knas ser]

Just to add, I do consider it normal to know what faction you'll be playing against - e.g. orks, eldar, whatever. Otherwise the entire strategic guessing game has no basis and you're back to boring generic hedging of bets.

[Thaldin]

Completely agreed, Knas...

When my friends and I play.. it's generally along the lines of this.. "Ok... 1500 pts? Good.. You're playing Chaos Marines and I will have my Eldar? Good...See you on the battlefield..." then we put together lists and play =)

I like mixing it up, throwing different units out there, and trying different combinations that sometimes just don't make sense =)