Proxies: When it isn't ok any more

[Duke]

So I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the other day. Essentially we started talking about proxies used in people armies and when it gets to the point of "go get the actual model."

What we essentially came down to was that it depends on what the intent is. For example, at my FLGS someone uses Chaos Knights as Blood Crushers. Originally it was said that they were proxiing because the actual models were too expenisve ($25 each!) we understood and let it go. Fast Forward a few months and that person hasn't bought any of the actual models and is using the wrong bases (on termie bases instead of dread bases)... Is this proxying gone too far, or not?

Another example: A Daemon player wants to use different 'gods,' units but wants the army to have a mono Khorne look. As such Fateweaver has been proxied by a fantasy varghulf. While his Blood thirster is proxied by a Balrog and cold ones are his fiends... Are all of these wrong? Is only one? I felt the Balrog proxiy was great, but wasn't too happy with the greater daemon being played by a Varghulf (That model doesn't scream "Greater Daemon") I thought (ignorantly) at that time that becuse of the proxied model fateweaver was more like Masque in that it was a special daemon who wasn't a greater daemon.

Example: Another player has chosen to use all Storm trooper models for his IG army. The only problem... his storm troopers are also storm trooper models so its really hard to tell what is what.

Last Example: A marine player uses sternguard models as tactical squad members, but doesn't run any actual sternguard.

What I wanted to know is 'when is it too much?' I came down to intention. Basically I don't like the Blood Crusher and fateweaver examples because the Blood Crushers have to be on a larger base and the person who started them said he didn't have the money to buy the actual models, while he is heard to be talking about starting a new army. With fateweaver it is simple, a Varg is in no way, shape or form anything like a greater Daemon... Imagine my suprise the first time I played him and he says "He is a greater daemon!"

The guard player I don't mind, if he would use something to differentiate his actual stormtroopers (I.e. paint job, Forgeworld models, etc.

The marine player I don't mind at all.

I would really like to hear what you all think...

Duke

[the one]

All but the last one are to far...

[Lord Azaghul]

Hey if the guard player is silly enough to use stormtroopers as stormstroopers I'd let him - using them as normal troops and ST is a bit (small bit) headache-ish.

The chaos knight for a blook crusher - nope - by now he should've bought a box of bloodletters and converted a few knights (and get the right bases)

Most people in my club do alright with proxying. I'm especially ok with 'trying it out' in a game or two - but if the whole club has to know that your russ battle cannon 'counts as' a medusa AND you fielding normal battle cannons after 3 or 4 months...sorry dude.

[Duke]

That was my feeling... I thought that he should at least be buying one or two every so often in an attempt to one day relace all of them. Its funny when people in the group don't think there is a bloodcrusher model because this guy uses knights so much. lol

[DarkLink]

So long as what is what is pretty clear, and the models are similar in size, proxying is fine.

The Knights as Bloodcrushers doesn't fit that, because Knightgs are much smaller than 'crushers.

Whereas the Sternguard is fine, since power armor looks a lot alike anyways. It isn't hard to remember that your opponent isn't actually taking Sternguard (now, if he is taking sternguard, and some are sternguard and some aren't, he'd better keep reminding you which is which).

[the one]

I know a man (Alan I belive) who has 12 bloodcrushers in his 1000 point army. Very. Hard.

He has the models to, but he got them on staff discount.

[Melissia]

I would prefer that the Guard player only use stormtrooper models for those with carapace, to be honest. That's what they're intended to be.

But when it comes down to it... the proxy needs the following, in order of importance:


1: Similar size and shape to the original model (don't, for example, use Ogryns to proxy Grots, or a land raider to proxy a trukk, etc). A big indication of this is the height of the miniature and the size of its base-- they should be very similar to the model you intend to use them as.


2: Consistency. "That golem is a terminator captain . And THAT golem, painted exactly the same, is a dreadnought. And the other one, also looking exactly the same, is a Rhino." Fffffffffffffffffffffff.........


3: Similar theme. using beasts of chaos as chaos army miniatures is fine, as long as they're on similar bases to the units you want them to represent. Using a Living Saint to represent a Greater Daemon of Nurgle is extremely questionable unless you're ludicrously good with greenstuff, painting, etc.


4: A reason for the proxy other than "I'm too lazy to paint my miniatures". Yeah. Get your *** to work. Now, if you're waiting for models to arrive, fine, that's fine. IF you have to use some unpainted models, hey, it's better than proxying. But don't proxy out of laziness!

[lobster-overlord]

For me it goes back to "Proxy" vs "Counts As."

A proxy is used when you don't have the model and a "counts as" model is used in place of a model where one does not exist, or you feel that you have a better representation for your army.

The stormtroopers as IG troops is more of a counts as unit, since he wants them to be represented by a model that he believes is cooler. Same for the Sternguard as tactical marines.

Now when you're dealing with people who don't want to put out the money for a model, it can go either way. If the player over time works towards making them more from proxy to counts as by modifying them, getting to the correct bases, etc. Then things should work out where the models will be better and work for what's needed.

I have played against a Tyranid player who uses models as proxies because he doesn't want to fork out the money for new models and doesn't want to spend the time converting. I've told him that I won't play him again just for that reason.

I would never start a nurgle army because I do not like the model choices, however, if I did, I would certainly do my best to use "counts as" models that represent the nurgle-esque nature of Death Guard but have more of a tech feel since I'm not into the grotesque part that is an essential aspect of their look. It would be about asthetics over function.

In my new Vostroyan army, there are no Melta gun troop models. I will be using the "counts as" proxy of my flamers as Meltas in certain units to start. I will be working toward conversions of these flamer models into melta models in time, as I finish the army. I've yet to encounter a person with a problem with that as my intention isn't to use "cheaper" models or to avoiding having to buy something new.

John M>Just remember that the soda bottle IS the carnifex.

[Cruor Vault]

The only one I have issues with is the Daemons player. If someone is going to use such a large quantity of something so good, and there is an official model. Then there is no excuse for them to continue using the knights models and start a new army without converting or updating the knights to look appropriate for Daemons and to make sure they are on the correct size bases!.

[Duke]

@ lobster: I like the differentiation on "proxy," vs. "counts as,"

I use the TH/SS termie from space hulk as "counts as Lysander," I put him on a termie base and nobody has a problem with it... However, right now I am trying out jump pack marines and before I go and buy 30 jump pack bits I wanted to proxy B.P CCW marines as "jump pack marines," though if I like them I plan on putting the pack on all of them.

Like I said in the OP it all comes down to intentions...

Duke