Chariots Charging vs. Riders Charging + Overwatch

[entendre_entendre]

Okay, this has come up a couple of times in the last few games against a Necron player with an Overlord on a Catacomb Command Barge. His Barge declares a charge on my unit. Due to insane luck on my part, I manage to destroy his barge on overwatch. Here's where the question comes in: do models that get their chariot destroyed during Overwatch also get to charge in that same phase? Here is the order of events for clarity:

1. Overlord on Barge declares charge against unit.
2. Unit overwatches, destroys chariot.
3. Overlord disembarks from open-topped wreck as normal
Here's where the issue arises:
4. Can the Overlord declare charge as it is now a separate unit and not prevented from assaulting due to Chariots being open-topped (i.e. Assault vehicles)? As a side note: could the rider charge a different unit if in range as well?

In essence, is the chariot itself charging, or is the model on the chariot charging? The model certainly fights and can be killed, but what is exactly charging here? The rules seem to say that the chariot declares the charge, but the rider fights and can be killed. But if the former rider charges too, isn't that model attempting an assault twice in the same phase? So far, we've just rolled a die for it, but I think a better solution is required in the long run. I can kinda see the strange rules logic behind allowing a second charge, but at the same time, why would getting your feet blown out from under you allow you to charge in the same phase?

[Subexarch]

Well, I couldn't find anything in the BRB that prevents the overlord from continuing his assault except him failing the pinning test for getting shot off his chariot. So apparently, yes he gets to continue his assault. If you play tau though he could get overwatched again by supporting fire I believe (without his cbariot to protect him).

[Bob821]

Couple of points.

Simply no! There is too much shenanigans that are not in the rules going on for my liking!

What if the charge distance was more than 6 inches? What if you have moved more than 6 inches in you movement phase? You cannot disembark and assault from a vehicle that has moved more than 6 inches in the movement phase! So why should you get to do it in the assault phase? If your movement and assault totalled less than 6 inches... still no! GW writes some complicated rules. But rarely are they that daft!

What if someone charged your unit with a chariot? You rolled all you over watch and got two hits. Now you rolled both dice at the same time as you’re not shooting at a mixed unit. You dice rolls 'kill' the chariot twice over. Should the extra wound now be placed on the Gentleman pulling himself from the rubble? Does not seem so to me. You just shot at a chariot unit not an infantry unit. But if he is still charging you than surly your spare over watch ‘wounds’ count.

What about your supporting fire. You would have thought that all that shooting was resolved pretty much simultaneously. So are all the shots at the chariot? Or are the shots at the chariot until it is destroyed. Resolving them one at a time and the rest at the lord? Again more stuff that is not in the rule book!

Maybe if you like the cinematic idea of a chariot being blown up and the mighty Necron lord jumping clear of the wreckage to continue his charge than maybe you could do an initiative test to see if he is fast enough to jump clear of the wreckage.

I don’t think you could charge a different target. Assaults are declared at the start of the assault phase... 'I'm going to assault you in my chariot of doooom! Er opps it’s been blown up! I'm going to charge yooou instead!' Does not seem right to me!

Further more this appears in GW FAQ...

Q: If a Chariot is Wrecked or suffers an Explodes! result in close
combat, does the rider remain locked in combat with the unit they
were fighting? (p82)
A: No, they perform an Emergency Disembarkation.

If they dont stay in combat when they are already in combat and there ride is blown to bits I don't see how thay can make it in to combat in the first place if the vehical is destroyed.

[Asuryan]

What if the charge distance was more than 6 inches? What if you have moved more than 6 inches in you movement phase? You cannot disembark and assault from a vehicle that has moved more than 6 inches in the movement phase! So why should you get to do it in the assault phase? If your movement and assault totalled less than 6 inches... still no! GW writes some complicated rules. But rarely are they that daft!

Technically this is wrong.

You can't disembark from a vehicle that has moved more than 6 inches is true but with transports you can if they get wrecked or blown up. And for the rule on assault vehicles the BRB exact wording is.

Passengers disembarking from Access points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed.

Which to me would say that the chariot got destroyed on overwatch, its wrecked or blown up and the overlord gets out and makes his test for pinning, and if succeeding charges the unit himself.

Now the only problem is if you want to consider the Overlord in the Chariot, and the Overlord himself as the same unit in which case the overlord couldn't charge because he all ready declared his charge and all that, but imo the Chariot and the Overlord are two separate units so the chariot can declare a charge, get destroyed and then the Overlord can charge.

[Nabterayl]

I think the existing rules cover this pretty well. If the chariot has moved more than 6" in its Movement phase, then the passenger cannot assault regardless of whether he voluntarily disembarks or is forcibly disembarked. Assuming the passenger isn't disallowed from charging because of the transport's movement during the Movement phase, though, and since he would be able to charge after disembarking normally (since the chariot is open-topped), then I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to declare a new charge. Nothing says that a passenger loses his Assault phase, after all.

As for whether the disembarked passenger could charge a target other than the one the chariot charged, I don't see why not. The passenger is clearly a separate unit from the chariot, just as all passengers are clearly separate units from their transports. If the chariot passenger shot at a unit during the Shooting phase, he'd have to charge that unit, but I don't see how the destroyed chariot's choice of Shooting or Assault target would have any bearing on the disembarked passenger's choice of Assault target.

[Asuryan]

except nowhere in the rules say that a model cannot charge if they vehicle moved more than 6 inches. The rule says they can't disembark. Now if you want to tell me that if I moved my skimmer with its last hullpoint 12 inches and then failed my difficult terrain test, wrecking me, in which my models must disembark, but wait they can't because the skimmer moved more than 6 inches so they are destroyed.

[Nabterayl]

except nowhere in the rules say that a model cannot charge if they vehicle moved more than 6 inches. The rule says they can't disembark. Now if you want to tell me that if I moved my skimmer with its last hullpoint 12 inches and then failed my difficult terrain test, wrecking me, in which my models must disembark, but wait they can't because the skimmer moved more than 6 inches so they are destroyed.

That seemed unnecessarily rude. This isn't <name of website redacted>. Let's keep it civil and non-personal, please.

That said, you're quite right - I mistook the 6" disembarkation restriction for an assault restriction. So I see nothing to prevent the passenger of an open-topped vehicle whose vehicle is wrecked by Overwatch fire from charging.

[Asuryan]

That seemed unnecessarily rude. This isn't <name of website redacted>. Let's keep it civil and non-personal, please.

That said, you're quite right - I mistook the 6" disembarkation restriction for an assault restriction. So I see nothing to prevent the passenger of an open-topped vehicle whose vehicle is wrecked by Overwatch fire from charging.

I apologize, didn't mean to be rude, was just pointing out another albeit unlikely situation where I would have to disembark after moving more than 6 inches, and I also could have been more clear in my original post, because I tried to point out that the restriction was to disembarking and not assaulting.