Captain America: The Winter Soldier

[Wildeybeast]

So the trailer is up. [url]http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/marvel/captainamericathewintersoldier/[/url]

I'm really excited for this. I know I'm in the minority, but I thought the cap was the best of the pre-Avengers films so I can't wait for WS.

Edit: Oh, and in case the trailer doesn't sell it to you, it features Scarlett Johannsen, Cobie Smulders, Hayley Atwell and Robert Redford.

[Nabterayl]

You know, I thought Captain America was only okay, but I thought Cap was brilliantly done in Avengers. Best line in the movie, for my money, was his:

There's only one God, ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that.

[Wildeybeast]

That was my favourite line too. That, and the slam down the old German dude delivers to Loki.

I get why most people didn't fall in love with First Avenger. What I like about it is what makes most people think it is ho hum or worse. I liked the artistic style, if that is the right term. That sort of faded patina like it was filmed in the 40's. Most of all I liked the Cap. Everyone rational thought I have tell me I should hate him - all American poster boy, goodie two shoes and so on. Except he isn't that (at least not in the films, I haven't read the comics). What he is is a Good Guy and you can't help but like him for it. He isn't overly charismatic, his powers and equipment aren't too OTT, he isn't riddled with complex psychological problems. He's just a Good Guy. He has an admirable and uncomplicated sense of right and wrong and he sticks to it, without the sanctimonious moralising or god-complex that Supes has. Those are the things which make other superheroes interesting, so I get why the film didn't wow people like other super hero films, but for me he is a welcome breath of fresh air.

[YorkNecromancer]

I'm really excited for this. I know I'm in the minority, but I thought the cap was the best of the pre-Avengers films so I can't wait for WS.

Totally agree. Lovely to see a film where the hero doesn't go on The Hero's Journey. I seem to recall it was by the guy who did 'The Rocketeer', and so it really had the whole dieselpunk 40's thing going on so well.

Plus, Cap is by far the most human of all The Avengers; the simple motivation of "I don't like bullies" is inspired.

Now, if only they could do a proper story built around him vs. Punisher, with Cap as metaphor for American militarism as ideal, and Punisher as American militarism as the dark side.

"How can you do these things Castle? You're an American soldier?"

"With respect, sir, we fought in different wars, and you know nothing of mine."



Get Garth Ennis to write it and it would be the best Marvel comic ever.

[Wildeybeast]

Dieselpunk. That was the term I was searching for.

You make a good point about the hero's journey as well. He has an origin story which makes him more believable, more achievable (in a still completely unachievable way) to the fan. No childhood trauma, no exploding planet, no vast pool of infinite wealth, just a Good Guy who wants to better himself for the sake of protecting others and gets the opportunity to do so. You sound like you've read some of his comics York, can you recommend some essential Cap stories for me to pick up?

[YorkNecromancer]

You sound like you've read some of his comics York, can you recommend some essential Cap stories for me to pick up?

I've read surprisingly few actually; I'm not a huge fan of Marvel comics, more specific writers (Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis, Bryan K. Vaughan, the usual suspects). I love the idea of Cap, but I've yet to read anything that wasn't "Captain America saves the day by punching stuff", which is really depressing when you've got this genuinely good man, who embodies everything great about the US (and there's a lot of great stuff about the US), and all you need to do to create drama is just to show him the truth about what the US government does (which is, by and large, horrific, and that's just in the real world).

Probably the best thing I have read with him in is 'Ultimates' vol.1; it's by Mark 'I'm Not A Sociopath, Just Stupid' Millar, who is a Vile Piece of Trash in real life, and so there's all sorts of really weird gender and sexual politics in it - I have yet to read a Mark Millar comic that didn't just make me feel uncomfortable (and not in the "wow, this horror story is really good" way, more the "wow, you really hate women, Mark Millar. You really, really hate them." kind of way). There's some good bits, but the overall thing is let down by the villains. Apparently, in the ultimate Marvel universe, the Reich was actually a secret ploy by aliens - which is an idea I find mildly annoying, because it kind of misses the point that in real life, we humans are quite comfortable coming up with ways to be horrible to each other without alien intervention. It also features the spectacularly stupid Captain Iraq, who is an Arabian Darth Maul, lightsabre included. He's never called Captain Iraq in the comic, but only because if he was it would be impossible to take him remotely seriously.

Yeah, the more I think of it, the more I dislike it. Although it does have The Best Line In Comics Ever.

"Surrender Captain, you cannot hope to win."

"Surrender? SURRENDER?"



Actually yeah, I've kind of shown you everything you need to read in Ultimates vol 1 right there.

[Nabterayl]

I agree that they did a really good job making him a Good Guy, and I really admire it when Hollywood is willing to do that (I give the same props to Optimus Prime, at least in the first Transformers). The thing I felt was sort of ho-hum about the film was actually just that Cap didn't seem challenging enough to those around him. I think he works much better when there are other, much more flawed superheroes for him to be contrasted against and challenge.

[Mr Mystery]

Cap is also my favourite of the Marvel films to date.

I think given its setting, it not only captures the ideal of enlisting, but managed to do so without making the film all AMERICA! **** YEAH!!!! It managed to make genuine heroes out of all the Allied soldiers shown. Cap springs them, but it's the soldiers that take down Hydra.

Absolutely glorious film.

Think I'll put it on tomorrow!

[YorkNecromancer]

I think he works much better when there are other, much more flawed superheroes for him to be contrasted against and challenge.

He simultaneously makes Iron Man look cooler (because Stark is cooler) and more of an ***hole (because Stark is an ***hole); the two are perfect for each other. Each is what the other is not, and the juxtaposition illuminates the unique heroism of the other.

Now get me some *******ed female Avengers! With actual superpowers! Who aren't just female versions of male characters! And who are preferably played by Katee Sackhoff!

I think given its setting, it not only captures the ideal of enlisting, but managed to do so without making the film all AMERICA! **** YEAH!!!! It managed to make genuine heroes out of all the Allied soldiers shown.

It's because, somewhat bizarrely, Captain America isn't really all about being American. He's about being a decent person, and doing the right thing, because it's the right thing. These are not uniquely American traits; they're universally human traits.

It's also the fact that he's by far the most human of the Avengers; just a poor kid who got lucky, and hasn't lost sight of that - he really is the 'ideal of hope' that Superman aspires to be. Again, this is why he's this massive mine of untapped potential as far as stories go - just have Cap call America out on its bull****: on the way it claims to have the greatest democracy - yet is riven with pathetic partisan brinksmanship and lunatic fringes; on the way it claims to lead the world - yet indulges in wars of conquest that achieve the exact opposite of what they set out to. He should be a mirror that says "This is what we are supposed to be; WHY ARE YOU GETTING IT SO WRONG?!"

It works because he's not left-wing or right-wing; he's just decent. His politics are entirely based around making the world a better place by being nice to people and punching baddies in the face, and that's just not how the world works, or how it has ever worked.

I'm really hoping they look at some of these issues in the new film. I am well psyched for it.

Side note: this outfit? Concentrated awesome.

[eldargal]

First Avenger was the film I expected to like least and why I wouldn't say I liked it most, it is one of my favourites. Actually I like all the First Wave films a lot. Really excited for it but I really, REALLY want Marvel to get their **** together when it comes to female superheroines. Get a really good female writer (or Joss Whedon) and a really good female actress and make a REALLY GOOD female lead film for ****s sake. Preferably Captain Marvel.

I also really, really hope the very vague rumours about Black Widow/Captain America relationship are false. Let them be friends, explore how two such different characters can be friends and th strain that might put on their relationship but don't make them lovers. Seriously.