Warhammer Wysiwyg...

[Mr Mystery]

Hiya.

So on the 40k boards right now there's lots of discussion about WYSIWYG, proxies and that.

And coupled with a visit to Forgeworld, it's got me thinking about WYSIWYG/Counts As in proper Warhammer.

Take my proposed Chaos list, based round Throgg and 36 Trolls, with various extra gribblies tacked on for good measure. I intend to use the River Trolls, as they're plastic, and nicer models than the Chaos Trolls.

But what if I procured Warhammer Forge's Troll Hag in place of Throgg? She's suitably impressive, and will definitely stand out. Could even rename the rules Throgg has to suit (crown one becomes 'Muvver Knows Best').

I'm then further tempted to replace the unit of 20 Forsaken with converted up mutated Peasant models, combining Empire Soldiers, Militia, spawny bits, Forsaken bits and Beastman bits to make up a wretched rabble of freaks and mutants.

Is this acceptable in your area, for a heavily converted army to be comprised entirely of proxies and stand ins?

[Metacarpi]

As long as the models either standout suitably (in terms of the Troll Hag for Throgg), and the units are different enough that they can be easily identified by sight as being a different type of unit, and everything is on the right sized base.

As long as those criteria are met, it'd be fine in my gaming group - it seems as though you've got that covered, soit'd be a green light from me!

One thing you might consider is that the peasants come on 20mm bases don't they? Might look a little small for Forsaken on the 25mm bases, but as long as you're happy with them, that's all that matters really!

Personally, I'd actively encourage it, as I love seeing what people come up with!

[lobster-overlord]

most whfb players and TOs arn't as douchey for whfb as they are for 40K so generally you can get away with more creative stuff. just lok up ' unit fillers ' as an example.

[ElectricPaladin]

In my experience thus far, two things are more common in Fantasy. One has to do with the rules, the other has to do with the generally more "laid-back" attitude common in Fantasy players. Perhaps they also have a bit to do with each other.

The first is that WYSIWYG is generally less important to Fantasy. This is probably because of magical items, which add these tiny but important degrees of customization to your model. Nobody expects anyone to WYSIWYG your magic items... that would be dumb. You'd need a dozen heroes in your collection to cover every possible combination. On top of magic items, most army books have other, similar upgrades - Disciplines of the Old Ones for the slann, Vampiric Powers for vampires, Runes for dwarves - which it just isn't practical to reflect in the model.

Additionally, Fantasy players seem to be a lot more open to time-saving, money-saving, and rule-of-cool-inspired substitutions. In Fantasy you see unit fillers (using a larger model or a unit centerpiece terrain thing, like a giant cook-pot taking up space in an ogre unit, to make a unit bigger than the number of models you have) and you see Reaper (and other) company minis standing in for GW heroes, and so on.

In short, Fantasy players are a lot more focused on having a good time with the game, while 40k players seem to be a lot more competitive and hard-nosed.

[Learn2Eel]

WYSIWYG is very lax in Fantasy, particularly when it comes to characters. Most opponents should never have an issue with that as long as you tell them what everything is.

[Chronowraith]

Agreed with pretty much everyone. WYSIWYG is almost non-existent in Fantasy. Every place I've been usually has the rule that a unit must be armed with whatever the majority of the unit appears to be armed with. So even in my Skaven army you'll see the odd slave or clanrat with a spear but since the majority of the models have hand weapons, it's still clear what the unit is equipped with.

For characters, most places simply say that characters must show the mundane equipment they have. So I couldn't take a warrior priest with two hand weapons to represent a priest that in fact has a great weapon. Magic items usually follow the common sense rule. Talismans, enchanted items, arcane items, etc need not be modeled at all. For weapons the only thing that matters is whether it uses two hands or if they are paired weapons.

Even then... most tournament organizers are pretty loose with characters though. As long as the model is distinguishable as a character, they usually let it pass. I'm fine with that too but I personally always try and model my characters using my own rules. I don't typically hold others to those standards.

[MAVV]

What everyone else said, basically. Personally, I love the idea of that female troll as Throgg, especially with the name changes to the rules. Definitely something I'd love to play against!

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah as long as it's clear what the models are supposed to be and everything is the appropriate size and base then all is good. For myself I try to make sure that all the mundane equipment is correct on models.

[Wildeybeast]

I'd say providing you don't take the Mickey with it. Cool conversions and proxies are pretty much universally admired but rocking up with a unit of spearman and saying they are swordsmen is going to be frowned on.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Take my proposed Chaos list, based round Throgg and 36 Trolls, with various extra gribblies tacked on for good measure. I intend to use the River Trolls, as they're plastic, and nicer models than the Chaos Trolls.

Convert them. That is why you are playing Chaos Right so you can convert stuff?

But what if I procured Warhammer Forge's Troll Hag in place of Throgg? She's suitably impressive, and will definitely stand out. Could even rename the rules Throgg has to suit (crown one becomes 'Muvver Knows Best').

I think she's a bitt to big, Throgg is normal Troll sized. BUT you could use her as A spawn or something else the right size...

I'm then further tempted to replace the unit of 20 Forsaken with converted up mutated Peasant models, combining Empire Soldiers, Militia, spawny bits, Forsaken bits and Beastman bits to make up a wretched rabble of freaks and mutants.

That would work so long as they are the right size and you have a few bits of heaver armour scattered in to remind folks they have Chaos Armour.

Is this acceptable in your area, for a heavily converted army to be comprised entirely of proxies and stand ins?

Yep Both my Norse Chaos Warriors and the Empire Whitch Hunters/Peasant Crusade feature heavly converted units...