Tornament play / Escalation and new formations.

[charliemachina]

Hi all

From the

[url]http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3510172a_WHW_Throne_of_skulls_Warhammer_40,000_Ev ent_Pack_2014_(wc12).pdf[/url]

Selecting your army

“As it is written in the Codex, so shall it be.” Chapter Master Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines

To attend a Throne of Skulls event, you’ll need to bring a 1500 point army, selected using the
“Choosing Your Army” guide on page 108 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

and from

[url]http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3010062a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules2013.pdf[/url]

Warhammer 40,000: 1500 points chosen from any official and current Warhammer 40.000 Codex

and from

[url]http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3520006a_Warriors_code_V1.2.pdf[/url]

If the event you are attending is using the
Warhammer 40,000 system, the following
publications (either digital or printed) are
available for you to choose your armies from:
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Sisters of Battle
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Any Codex Expansion, for example Iyandan, the
Farsight Enclaves, Black Legion etc.
Death from the Skies – please note this
compendium from pages 53 to 72 will be in use
at all our Warhammer 40,000 events. Entries
will be replaced as time goes by, as Codexes
are released which include the units presented
within Death from the Skies. We expect
everyone to use the most recently released
version of each unit entry. If you have any
questions regarding this, please just contact us.


it seems that although Escalation and Formations are there for people to use in regular play GAMES WORKSHOP has no intention of allowing you to bring Superheavies and other shenanigans to Their Throne of Skulls events this March!

i'd take this as a clear message that Escalation, formations etc are there for fun and not for competative play.............................................. ..Seems we can all relax.

Cheers

Charlie

[Denzark]

I wouldn't take it either as confirmation nor denial. These new rules for ToS come into play from January tournaments, but have been on display on the website from around October and were actually pinned up in the gaming hall at Nottingham for the November event.

I say this makes no difference as they wouldn't have wanted to namecheck the 2 supplements back then, due to the GW air of secrecy.

If you look at Death from the skies, this went to replace the WD entries for fliers - to mean that when you go somewhere you have an official book to hand, not a bit of paper/magazine entry. GW accepts the WD content at ToS. So I think it reasonable to consider that they will certainly want to replace the paper fortification stats found in boxes, with a solid book ie Stronghold being acceptable at ToS.

I am not so sure about Escalation - and good luck to anyone who has room for a super heavy in 1500pts.

All I think this confirms is that if it isn't in the main, core rules, then it is a matter for the players and/or the TO.

[Katharon]

Not to mention most of the material has just come out, so they are not likely to want to include it in their coming events until the material has had time to filter throughout the gamer base and people are more familiar with it.

[charliemachina]

I know it's not a definate answer but GW are very quick to tell you if you can include a new supplement at these tornaments.

They are about friendly competative play.

I can see some of the fortifications being introduced but not the super heavy's.......!

DENZARK :

All I think this confirms is that if it isn't in the main, core rules, then it is a matter for the players and/or the TO.

I agree with the above.

The point is GW doesn't seem to be in any rush to make superheavies legal and the are quick to tell you you can't use an older edition codex released a week before an event!

I think these latest additions are for fun and fluff and not for competative play.

[Subexarch]

Well you can't have multiple detachments till 2000 pts anyway (formations released so far are all detachments unto themselves ) so I wouldn't expect to see them at 1750 pts anyway.

[Seerkarandras]

GW has some tournament thing they are rolling out. A local store in Lansing is hosting an event and rumor has ti GW is throwing their hat into the tournament scene again and running a circuit.

Really all theses new data slates, supplements and such are going to be yes in some tournies and no in others. ultimately we the tournament going public are really going to decide what is in tournaments by what we attend.

[Muninwing]

now consider this:

(from 3++)

[url]http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/feast-of-blades-will-be-enacting-restrictions-and-bans/#more-8692[/url]

We are interested in running a tournament who's results fall more to player tabletop skill than listbuilding skill. We are interested in running an event where many builds are possible, not just a few power-and-counter builds. To that end, Feast of Blades will be enacting limits and bans.

The exact nature of these restrictions are already well into discussion and development, and will be available in their discrete form VERY soon. We know what the problem builds and combos are, now we are giving them the axe. Below, I will preview some of our changes:

———————————————————————————————————-

1.) The Grimoire of True Names from Codex: Daemons is banned
As of right now, this is the only true banning. We feel there is too much potential for abuse, and disagree with the effect it has on the army and the game.

2.) A few units will receive 0-1 status
For those of you who weren't around when 0-1 was a thing in codecies, means that a maximum of 1 of that unit may be taken per army. These are all units whose mass inclusion limits the potential lists in the game, and will thus be restricted. (As none of them are a problem on their own.) Rest assured that this will be a very short list, we are not interested in creating very restricted armies.

3.) Supplemental Codecies will no longer be able to ally to their base codex
There will be no more self-allying, no more cherry picking the best parts of a supplement while paying none of the costs, and no more force-org bloat from doing so.

4.) Dataslates will take an ally slot
Taking units from many, many different books and ignoring the force organization chart is too much. This change will make dataslates an interesting addition to the game, without allowing for truly bizzare armies.

5.) The number of psychic mastery levels in an army will be limited
This change will eliminate a great many power combos from the game, and will stop a player from making a lot of lucky rolls on the psychic power tables to effectively win the game before it begins.

6.) Strength D is out, Lords of Battle are in
We feel the the Lords of Battle are not overpowered on their own, the fact that they give the opponent some advantages (bonus to seize, and especially victory points) balances out their fearsome firepower and powerful endurance. Strength D, however, is too powerful. This is well-known by every apoc player (and I am one of them), and has been the case for the past two editions. (Yes, it was even overpowered back in 5th, and it was much worse then.) There is some debate still going on, but it looks like S will become S:10, ordinance, ignores cover. That still makes it very powerful, but more in line with the price paid for the superheavy as well as it's other weapon options. In addition, superheavies will have to start on the table.

7.) Super-forts are gone, or at least downsized
No AV15, it will be AV14 instead. Every individual fortification from Stronghold Assault is allowed, but the “network” choices are simply too big and unwieldy to allow for tournament play. (As a consolation, they're pretty terrible, so I think it's OK.)

8.) Dedicated transport flyers will be limited
Flyers are not the be-all end-all of this edition, but all-flyer and mostly-flyer armies change the meta in uncomfortable ways and are notoriously unfun to play against.

***

so... the first immediate reaction to Escalation is... escalation. it escalates the WTF of the players, and forces a governing body presiding voer a certain amount of clout to act where the company refuses to. i'll ignore the political comparisons for the moment and point out that this coud be a great thing if done correctly.

how many major tournaments are there every year? how many are run by different people? what will happen once these people -- in the digital age of instant communication -- start using each other as examples and thus create a "standard tournament rules" base from which others can adapt as necessary?

ETC has been doing modded army lists for years. why not make the leap for more interesting tournament play?

[Katharon]

1) Sounds like people b*tching about the item being too powerful. The rules for it are very clear in how you use it. I don't get the idea of "abuse" since you can only take one of them and it can only affect one unit at a time...people need to start taking these things on the chin and suck it up. Think around it. Develop new tactics. Etc.

2) People complaining about 2-3 Hellturkeys seems to be the source of this one, as well as people taking lots of Riptides or Wraithknights. You pay the points to field those units, limiting your army list in others. Again, these lists can be defeated by good tactics and preparation.

3) Again, sounds like people are wussing out.

4) Dataslates specifically state in their rules what FoC slot they do or do not take up. If it's a formation, then the rules for it state that it does not take up an Allied Detachment slot. Again, people are paying the points to take those units, so their primary list is going suffer. Stop b*tching and move on.

5) No. The rules dictate the mastery levels. It's written in the codex. If you expect to fight a bunch of psykers, then build your army to deal with them. Suck. it. up.

6) There is a difference between Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer 40,000 Escalation. It's an expansion supplement, just like Cities of Death or Spearhead. Treat it as such. D-weapons are part of the territory of Escalation. Don't like it? THEN DON'T PLAY ESCALATED GAMES OF 40K!

7) Considering the amount of things that can take out vehicles and buildings, this shouldn't be an issue. If the codex or supplement says AV15, then its AV15. No downgrading just because people whine and say "b-b-but it's haaard!"

8) Again, if you expect to face a certain army, then you can easily have an army to face that. It's called making an all-comers list. People that devote a lot of points to fliers are taking points away from their other, more vital sections of their FoC. Punish them for it on the tabletop, not through b*tching on the outside.

--------


All of this to me just shows that people are more comfortable with complaining than with critical thinking. They are looking at Escalation as if every game from now must be Escalated to include Lords of War (THEY DON'T, IT'S A FREAKING OPTIONAL EXPANSION). These bans and limits are ultimately the wrong approach to these things. It's people that are limiting the game to suit their needs and wants, not to suit the majority players. It's descrimatory and childish.

[Wolfshade]

As always TO have the option to run their Tournies how they see fit.

My question is have they played with enough dataslates/escalation/other combos to ensure that there is sufficent play testings to justify the moves. We all see cries of this new codex is overpowered! when a new one drops (or even the weeks before).

The cycle is like this:
New Codex/Rules drop
Cries about ABC is over powered, the sky is falling
Someone publishes an efficent netlist that is "good"
Everyone buys and runs said netlist
Someone counters the netlist
People realsie why the counter works and how to play against the new codex
Balance is restored (well aside from those using truely ancient codex)

So yes escalation seems a little op, but have enough games been played to counter this? Originally, the only counter to a flyer was another flyer, now we are seeing ways to deal with them without resorting to your own flyers.

[Katharon]

As always TO have the option to run their Tournies how they see fit.

My question is have they played with enough dataslates/escalation/other combos to ensure that there is sufficent play testings to justify the moves. We all see cries of this new codex is overpowered! when a new one drops (or even the weeks before).

The cycle is like this:
New Codex/Rules drop
Cries about ABC is over powered, the sky is falling
Someone publishes an efficent netlist that is "good"
Everyone buys and runs said netlist
Someone counters the netlist
People realsie why the counter works and how to play against the new codex
Balance is restored (well aside from those using truely ancient codex)

So yes escalation seems a little op, but have enough games been played to counter this? Originally, the only counter to a flyer was another flyer, now we are seeing ways to deal with them without resorting to your own flyers.

Agreed on all points. Especially your first. While some TO's will undoubtedly put in bans and limits, as seems to be the case here, I would hope that others are more open and less reactionary.