Why is the Tournament Scene getting flak, and do they deserve it?

[Orange]

Most of the tournament scene in my area are former Games Workshop employees or guys who come into the stores regularly and play. Tournaments are not so much about meeting new players and power gaming as a day that is organized and you know you are getting three - five big games in against nicely painted models with people who know the rules.

The only reason half of tournament guys get flak is because of these imaginary armies that people have like Flying Circus, Leafblower, etc. that won a tournament and continued to place well and people think they are auto-win armies and most people on here are guys who get off to Space Marine battle porn and just want to shoot bolters all game.

[DarkLink]

Well, really, tournament players are getting flak because of trolls like this:

Tournament players shouldn't be getting any flak, they should just be ignored, giving them the oxygen of publicity is confirming in their heads that the game revolves around them, its good to see the rest of the community finally hitting back at those people who complain and moan about everything.

But, yes,the perception of tournament players as waac is overblown. And you will never see as many awesome converted and painted armies in one place as you will at a major tournament.

[Eldar_Atog]

But, yes,the perception of tournament players as waac is overblown. And you will never see as many awesome converted and painted armies in one place as you will at a major tournament.

Everyone's experiences are different. For you, playing with tournament players has been a positive experience: Well painted armies, good sportmanship, and creative lists.

For me, playing with tournament players has been a negative experience: Min-maxed lists, childish tantrums, cheating, bad winners/sore losers.

I say the perception of tournament players as WAAC is an accurate one.

[DarkLink]

I'm not saying they aren't out there. I'm saying I've been to a lot of tournaments, and they're pretty rare. In fact, more common are anti-competitive players who will rant about how cheese your army is compared to their fluffy necron flyer spam, but those are still a lot less common than in pickup games in my experience.

Point is, when you jump to conclusions about large groups of people based on limited personal experience, you're going to be wrong on some level.

Plus, playing a tough list doesn't make you a bad person. In my experience, most of the complaining about waac has nothing to do with the actual winning list, and everything to do with the fact that the looser lost and that makes the other guy's army cheesy.

[Auticus]

There is no way to quantify what is or is not Waac. There is no way to quantify what most people are complaining about. Waac takes many forms to many people. To some it is that they lost yes. To others it is that the guy across the table is treating the game like a professional sport. To others it is that the guy across the table has an army list that is min/maxed. To another it is the guy across the table was just caught cheating.

To say that the majority of people complaining about WAAC is mostly due to them losing is as (in)valid as saying that the majority of people that go to tournaments are WAAC. There is no way to quantify or justify either statement with anything other than personal opinion and personal anecdote.

[Eldar_Atog]

Point is, when you jump to conclusions about large groups of people based on limited personal experience, you're going to be wrong on some level.

Another point: when you make assumptions that someone that disagrees with you must have limited personal experience, you come off as short sighted.

Perhaps I have not played as much as you but that does not lessen my experiences. I've been to several small and medium tournaments and everyone of them has been a negative experience. Winning and losing is meaningless to me. I just wanted to have a few good games and get some ideas for painting. My take away from each of those events was that the tournament scene draws in every bad personality type under the sun.

Plus, playing a tough list doesn't make you a bad person. In my experience, most of the complaining about waac has nothing to do with the actual winning list, and everything to do with the fact that the looser lost and that makes the other guy's army cheesy.

And my experience is that people complaining about WAAC have valid complaints. It's about the bullying behavior that some tournament seem to revel in. I've watched grown *** men taking such glee in completely destroying a young kid's love for minituare gaming. I'll never understand the need in some people to destroy someone else just to give meaning to their own miserable existance.

I'm sure all Catholic priests are not pedophiles but they will always have the reputation. They failed to police themselves and look where they are now. If tournament players are so worried about their reputations, then they are going to be the ones that fix the problem. This is not the fault of the more casual gamers.

[DarkLink]

I meant that in the sense that just because you've had a problem with tournaments doesn't mean everyone has. So if you don't want to go to the, that's fine. I wouldn't go if I had a bad tournament scene, either. It happens that I do, though, so it bugs me when people paint a picture with such a broad, judgemental brush.

[gcsmith]

I don't know why people complain about tourney lists. As far as I'm concerned, bring fluffy fun lists if you want, but never complain when someone brings the best they can.

[SaveModifier]

Its not a competitive game, its a friendly game meant to be played civilly between people that can act like decent human beings. The aim of any game of 40K is spelled out very clearly in the rule book that WAAC players obviously haven't bothered to read, its for everyone involved to have fun. Its on page 8 of the rule book, look it up, read that and if you can honestly, hand on heart tell me that your 3 Hell Drake list, or whatever the current flavour of the month is, fits in with the spirit of the game, then you're either a liar or an idiot.

Trying to destroy your opponent isn't part of the game and using net lists that someone much smarter than you wrote, usually as nothing more than an intellectual exercise, is you trying to remove that element of fun for your opponent for no other reason than your own inferiority. If you aren't capable of writing a list thats as fun to play against as it is to play with, one where you aren't going to win all the time, then thats not GWs fault, they've given you the tools to write those fun lists to play the game with while respecting your opponent and tell the story of your battle, they're abusable but the social contract thats expected between two adults playing a game means that it shouldn't be an issue.

Tournament players, as a whole, as seen on the internet forums and this very thread, are whining, entitled children, trying to change the game into a boring thing that no one would actually want to play because they either lack the social grace or intelligence to be able to spend and other people's leisure time correctly.

[gcsmith]

Its not a competitive game, its a friendly game meant to be played civilly between people that can act like decent human beings. The aim of any game of 40K is spelled out very clearly in the rule book that WAAC players obviously haven't bothered to read, its for everyone involved to have fun. Its on page 8 of the rule book, look it up, read that and if you can honestly, hand on heart tell me that your 3 Hell Drake list, or whatever the current flavour of the month is, fits in with the spirit of the game, then you're either a liar or an idiot.

Trying to destroy your opponent isn't part of the game and using net lists that someone much smarter than you wrote, usually as nothing more than an intellectual exercise, is you trying to remove that element of fun for your opponent for no other reason than your own inferiority. If you aren't capable of writing a list thats as fun to play against as it is to play with, one where you aren't going to win all the time, then thats not GWs fault, they've given you the tools to write those fun lists to play the game with while respecting your opponent and tell the story of your battle, they're abusable but the social contract thats expected between two adults playing a game means that it shouldn't be an issue.

Tournament players, as a whole, as seen on the internet forums and this very thread, are whining, entitled children, trying to change the game into a boring thing that no one would actually want to play because they either lack the social grace or intelligence to be able to spend and other people's leisure time correctly.

The aim of a game is to be competative, as long as winners and losers exist, it will be competative. The only reason it's so bad at being competative is lazy writing on behalf of GW. And also, the irony of you saying people are being entitled when you say "IT IS NOT COMPETATIVE" and saying the spirit of the game doesn't fit winning lists....