Kingdom Death Plastic Pinups

[DarkLink]

That was more than a little harsh.

[Deadlift]

I really like these, I love the fact that somebody's sculpted a female form that's not skinny small boob elve. The 1st one in particular is rather beautiful in a very buxom kind of way. Not so sure about some of the poses with the turned in impossible leg positions but besides that they are really nice. The physiques remind me of the female barberian from Diablo 3.

These are from the "pin up" KD range, if that's not your thing fine, but as I've said I really like the way they've done the larger framed female physique in a nice way.

[eldargal]

Interesting. So the toys you play with in your parents basement are ok? Just not the ones that threaten your manhood?



If this stuff offends you then I'm guessing more than you know.

Let me just point out a couple of ways these attitudes are EXTREMELY childish...

1 - If most of you walked into a museum, or a park and found something like this in stone, and over 4 ft tall, it would be beautiful art.

2 - It's extremely mysoginistic to assume women can't be proud of their bodies, and that we as human beings can't celebrate who we are through our art. The human body, both male and female has been the subject of art for time immemorial, unabashadly and unashamed.

3 - I'm willing to bet those most vehemently opposed don't have an issue when their sitting in front of their monitors watching the porn that can be found all over the web.

4 - I personally know a slew of women who are in the pinup world, from models to photographers to makeup artists. They all very much enjoy what they do and they do it to celebrate their feminism, and their bodies. These women love who they are.

Don't let twisted western/christian mores trick you into believing the human form is bad, or wrong in anyway, and that showing it in art is pornography. If you can't see the art in this sort of thing then you have a serious ton of growing up to do.

When I first saw these my thought was 'wow, awesome sculpting'. My second was 'nice to see they aren't the typical rail thin form our modern society insist women need to look like to be beautiful. I think the individual who sculpted these loves the female form and did them service in his or her sculpts.

Keep in mind the entire range is hyper sexualized. Ironic when folks like eldergal say they enjoy everything else but these...

1) What's your point? I can walk into a museum and look at the naked musculature of men as well, where are the KD male pinups? Why is it just enormous breasts on display?

2) Yes it is. It is also misogynist to dismiss the feelings of a woman who finds these to be discomfiting, as you have with me.

3) Probably

4) Me too, not sure what your point is. I'm a lipstick feminist or if you prefer a sex positive feminist. But we aren't talking about pin up models reveling in their own sexuality we are talking about miniature sculptures.

Stop building straw men. This isn't about the human form being bad, at least not for me. I'll get onto that in a moment. Don't presume someone who doesn't like these is some kind of anti-art prude. I have a ****ing degree in art history and I work in a ****ing museum and I've done life modelling for various ****ing artists.

Awesome sculpting isn't incompatible with problematic elements.

Don't put words in my mouth, I said the rest of the range has a bit more going for it and that I liked SOME of it, not that I enjoy everything.

Why I find these sculpts problematic:

-The women are all virtually identical. There is no character or expression or individuality in their faces. They are blank canvasses, statues, not even aware that they are on display and certainly not reveling in it like pinup models do. This is problematic for me because women are expected to be blank canvasses on which men can project their desires and that is the feeling I get when I see these sculpts.
- Likewise their bodies are all identical. Huge, gravity defying breasts and small waists. You say it is nice to see something other than the rail thin modern conception of beauty and fine, yes it's good they aren't all waifs. But replacing one conception of beauty with another is NOT progress.
-The poses. I get that this is a pin-up range but they all share similar, knock kneed, overly girlish poses that have more in common with modern advertising standards than historical or modern revival pinup art. Where is the fun and whimsy that pinups are supposed to embody? All we have here are pouty, busty women posing in skimpy clothing. I don't see that as being particularly positive.

On the subject of body positive message:


I see a lot of nice sculpts here with body types not usually represented and that is great. I also see a whole lot of new hyper sexualised female sculpts in a market already saturated them and that is problematic. I was also put off but what I (and many others) saw as a focus on the pinups over the actual game models, it felt at times like KD were funding their game by focusing on the pinups and not the game models.

Now, if you disagree with me, that is fine. If you love these sculpts, that is fine. But don't presume to tell me how I should ****ing feel about them just because you disagree.

[SaveModifier]

Yeah, basically what eldargal said.

What I meant by not hating women, is that I know how some women feel about these issues and that means personally, I cannot justify to myself supporting this company because they make these models. One of the typical arguments people defending this trash bring out is that i should "vote with my wallet", as if that has ever had any impact historically, which is what I'm doing, Kingdom Death will never see a penny of my money because of these models, they make some nice models, but, for me, this means I can't support them, I don't support a lot of companies because of their practises, Nestle for example. It doesn't do anything really, there are always enough people out there to support the businesses who don't care about the issues.

These type of over sexualised models and depictions of women offend and upset people, if you're happy with the models you buy upsetting people, that is your choice, but, telling people they're wrong for being offended and then listing a load of bollocks to try and defend why you like the thing that upsets people is ****ing stupid. I have every right to be offended, I don't have the right to tell you what to do, but I can tell you the effect what you're doing has. The fact of the matter is, I love this hobby and I love the company of women so I'd like to be able to be involved both at the same, but because of the representation of women that these models fit the exact stereotype of that eldar girl listed above me, many women can't see any representation for them in the hobby, or the sci fi/fantasy world in general, and so are immediately turned off by it, personally, I'd rather have more heroic depictions of women, look at Hasslefree miniatures, a lot of their female models are topless or scantily clad, but every single one is brimming with character and thought, none of them look like victims, they're warriors and soldiers, the same as the men, that is what equality is, these models are all helpless, they're cowering or posing, they're not ready for battle, from the way their legs and feet are, if any of them launched an attack, they'd twist an ankle.

[GrauGeist]

Here, we see a certain amount of willful ignorance on the part of eldargal.

BOLS did review and painting of the original 4 survivor models, along with the original KS launch.

[url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/hobby-practicing-skin-tones-with.html[/url]

Note that the males are also stripped to the waist. They're also ripped and toned. You can even see their nipples, how scandalous!

None of the starting models has more than a cloth sheet for covering themselves. All of the starting survivors were treated equally.

But don't let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

[SaveModifier]

Here, we see a certain amount of willful ignorance on the part of eldargal.

BOLS did review and painting of the original 4 survivor models, along with the original KS launch.

[url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/hobby-practicing-skin-tones-with.html[/url]

Note that the males are also stripped to the waist. They're also ripped and toned. You can even see their nipples, how scandalous!

None of the starting models has more than a cloth sheet for covering themselves. All of the starting survivors were treated equally.

But don't let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

This isn't about the game figures, its about the Pin Up models, which people have repeatedly stated are totally seperate and not needed for the game. There are no male miniatures in the Pin Up line, the female survivors are more in line with how it should be, they're dressed in a similar way and are armed and ready to fight, some of the armour packs even give them armour that might protect them in a fight, a rarity in the miniature world, however, how well done the survivor miniatures are doesn't mean that the Pin Up models aren't crass and sexualised.

And GrauGeist, I saw your comment about not wanting women in the hobby, so, I'm going to pretty much disregard whatever you say Dave.

"We flat out don't care, and nor should we. I don't get into the whole quilting or pretending-to-read-book-wine-party-club thing either. Not a big deal."

[DarkLink]

Given the context of this thread and what Eldargal is actually responding to, I don't really see how that is relevant, GrauGeist.

[Deadlift]

Just showed them to the wife, I've always valued her opinion especially in things like this. She is a feminist as am I apparently so I asked her what she thought of them.

I said I liked them, but she wasn't impressed, she asked "what are they supposed to be ?" Either way she thinks they are a bit boring. When I asked her about the debate that's resulted she basically said " they're just models, feminists have much bigger issues than worrying about 28mm models"

[DarkLink]

That's where my confusion is. Savemodifier made a relatively innocent comment, and then suddenly people started dogpiling him, and eldargal too for some reason. It's a frikin lump of plastic the size of your thumb. Chill out.

[eldargal]

If we are going to talk about the original survivors:


Look at his body language. Dynamic, confident, aggressive and powerful.He's half naked and unselfconscious about it because hey, he has more important things to worry about. His head is angled down while he grimaces with effort.


Look at his body language. Confident, collected, upright, somewhat static. He's half naked and unselfconscious about it like the other male. Head straight, gaze forward.


Look at her body language. Static, crouched, defensive and self conscious. Despite holding what is ostensibly a weapon she is clutching it in a way which both tries to hide her breasts from the viewer while drawing attention to them ([URL="https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJo5Ho6q_EEfOfkHCj6szI9hj3fVjMK QiMBbKaz1M3OYSKiT92bA"]a common enough trope[/URL]). Head bowed, blank expression like every other KD female.

So despite being each survivor being half naked the manner in which that nakedness is depicted is radically different. The men are sculpted to look confident, the woman is not. Now the fact is her stance is a relatively sensible combat stance (if she had something other than a rock, not the greatest of defensive weapons) but the issue here isn't practicality but HOW the genders are shown relative to each other. This is a common theme throughout KDs range. The woman are either parading their bodies in a deliberately gratuitous way (ie posing) as in the pinup range or they are shown in poses of submission. They also have no variation in facial expression, all sharing the same uniform features and pout.

Now as I said I have ZERO issue with someone liking these, how dare I? Tastes differ. I was also too harsh is describing them as 3D porn for fanboys (though that is how I feel about them), I forgot my own rule of framing judgements of models in subjective, personal terms. But this escalated rather ridiculously.

Just showed them to the wife, I've always valued her opinion especially in things like this. She is a feminist as am I apparently so I asked her what she thought of them.

I said I liked them, but she wasn't impressed, she asked "what are they supposed to be ?" Either way she thinks they are a bit boring. When I asked her about the debate that's resulted she basically said " they're just models, feminists have much bigger issues than worrying about 28mm models"

Well yes KDs models are hardly important taken in isolation, or even miniatures as a whole, but the issue goes beyond 28mm scale models, it extends to television, film and video games. Women are depicted gratuitously in a way which is tailored primarily to a male audience with no thought to how women feel about it. This is just a small part of that problem.

Did someone mention Hasslefree?


This is one of my favourite HF sculpts. She is wearing less clothes than the KD models, she is standing tall, gazing at something to her left and her face has some real character in my opinion. Is she sexualised? No, she is naked. Her breasts are full without being ridiculous. I think this is beautiful.

Another HF sculpt:
[url]http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/HF5403%20Gypsy%202.jpg[/url]
Head and shoulders back, upright pose, striding forward confidently, heavier cheekbones and smaller eyes than the other sculpt. A different face. Lips parted, jeering or sneering or who knows? Oozes character and confidence.

I could go on and on highlighting beautiful HS sculpts but this isn't the topic for it, just making a point.