GW Love/Hate

[Grimwaldo]

Recently I was reading a forum called where is the love? It stated (in a nut shell) that we love GW products however hated the company, why was this the situation? After reading the comments I have come to the conclusion that we love GW products however hate the company because GW does not listen to their community.
I had been buying and playing GW games for over 26 years when I first came across the Warhammer 40k rouge trader. I loved it from the get go. I like the space opera grimdark and all it had to offer.
Now I am selling everything that I have collected over that period of time and am turning my back to the company. Why?GW could not care less about their community or what we have to say about the game.
I have played multiple systems from warmahoards to dystopian wars and have found that both Privateer Press and Spartan games are much more receptive to there community. They both have open betas and welcome input and will change rule sets based upon community input.
GW on the other hand keeps their community at arms length and treats their rule sets like state secrets. This has harmed them in many ways. GW does not understand the community and cannot know what they want. If they were to ask for the community to participate in rules testing and input, then they could produce a line of models that people would be excited about. This would also spread the word about fantastic new product and how it would work in your army.
People would PRE-order modles they were excited about! This would Tell GW what kinds of product people want and also let then know what models to produce more of so that they can keep sales up. Most major corporations already do this to try and meet future demands and reduce wasted time and effort into things that people do not want or very few people will buy.
On a second note asking the community for input creates a feeling of ownership which makes people feel loyal to your product, gives ownership and generates excitement as well as brand loyalty.
GW only wants your money. From what I have experienced in GW stores and seen on forms they could not give a rip about what you think about rules, competaive game play or what direction you would like to see the game go.
I at one point loved the game and the flavor and rode it out though good times and bad. Now I see though the recent massive publications of both print and online media as a cash grab to prop up flagging sales without any kind regard for the community.
Common GW you can do better than this. Ask the community what they want vs shoving things we never asked for down our throats.

[Pssyche]

Don't you just love it when somebody starts a new account, with an apropos name, just in order to launch a diatribe?

Happy First Post Grimwaldo!

[Grimwaldo]

Eh gotta start somewhere.

[Chris Copeland]

I like GW. I dig their games. I love their sculpts. I love what they do for this hobby. I feel I get an excellent value for my hard earned dollar. I guess I just don't see where you are coming from, Grimwaldo... cheers... Cope

[Wolfshade]

Oh no! A company doesn't work the way I wish it did oh noes!

GW does care about their community, or customers as they call them. After all, if they didn't have customers then they wouldn't sell their stuff.

As for not getting excited about new models? Really, who doesn't get excited by them, one only has to look ath the number of hits the blurry wip shot threads get, or sneak peaks else where.

[Mr Mystery]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers. You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

As for demands to make the game competitive.....why? Do you expect every make and model of car to be suitable for street racing, without any end user modifications? No? Fancy that! Horses for courses. GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

[Pssyche]

Spot on, Mr. Mystery.

[Denzark]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers. You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

As for demands to make the game competitive.....why? Do you expect every make and model of car to be suitable for street racing, without any end user modifications? No? Fancy that! Horses for courses. GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

One of the best descriptions of the situation...

[DarkLink]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers.

GW doesn't do **** to promote their hobby, beyond releasing WD. If you think having a couple of GW only stores in the UK does anything to promote customers, well... anywhere else in the entire world, you're wrong. I only know what Warhammer World is. I know that GW supposedly has some stores, somewhere, but I've never actually seen one. I've only ever seen any GW products through third parties like flgs and websites like BOLS, yet GW actively persecutes these places.

You might happen to live in the one place in the world where GW actually does stuff, but if you move literally anywhere else, you're out of luck.

You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

I'd just like to point out that your beloved fluff is pretty blatantly ripped off of other, earlier sources. Mostly Dune, with some Starship Troopers and a few other things mixed in. But virtually nothing in 40k is original, and it's not just taken from other sources in the 'inspired by' sense, it's taken from other sources in the 'well, we call our galaxy spanning empire the Imperium instead' sort of way.

PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

PP does infinitely more to promote its community than I've ever seen GW do. You've also obviously never played any scenario games, and you also seem to be mistaking your dislike of steampunk for an actual valid argument to a lack of quality of their setting. While you might not like the general way in which Warmahordes plays, you also cannot take more than cursory glance at their rules compared to GWs and immediately see that PP actually gives a damn about the quality of their rules, while GW doesn't.

Plus, if you're going to compare to GW, no **** they're small and don't have as much fluff. GW has something like 2000 employees worldwide, and has been around for 30 years. PP has been around for about a decade, and might have 100 employees.

But as I mentioned, PP also openly promotes gaming events of all types all across the US.

Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

They're a very small company. I've got an army coming in the mail, we'll see how the game plays. It seems like a lot of fun, and far, far, far more tactical and/or strategic than 40k. Plus? Bought an entire army for a hundred bucks, plus shipping.

As for demands to make the game competitive.....why?

Because that's what a huge percentage of their market asks for. It's not about being competitive. It's about having well balanced, well written rules that aren't full of idiocy and rage-inducing loopholes. Which is not what GW provides.

GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

So, what, they're intentionally making ****ty rules? Because I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play any expansions or any missions outside of the standard 6, except when a tournament makes up its own missions. Heck, PP does a better job forging a rock hard narrative than GW does with its Tier lists, where it actually lays out what you can and can't take if you want to make use of some character's fluff. Compared to GW, and every DA army is Deathwing, half the GK armies are either Purifier Spam or Draigo and friends, and so on.

And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

And I know you've got a raging GW apologist boner going on, and a massive hate-on for anything not 40k, but that doesn't mean that all the reasons why a lot of people don't like certain things about GW magically go away. I like 40k, I like the overall way the game plays, I like the models and most of the armies, I like how easy it is to get a game, but GW has never done anything for me than produce models and print rules that were half fun, half facepalming stupidity. I like Warmahordes and how well written the rules are and how PP actually cares about their rules and their customers and about holding events to promote the game. Infinity seems the same way so far, too.

Plus, while GW takes some undeserved flak for their business practices from armchair economists, GW does have a number of business practices that several real-life business guys who I know have managed companies/divisions that make GW looks like a mom and pop business scratch their head at. And if their revenue shortfalls continue, they're going to need to revamp their business plan.

[Denzark]

GW doesn't do **** to promote their hobby, beyond releasing WD. If you think having a couple of GW only stores in the UK does anything to promote customers, well... anywhere else in the entire world, you're wrong. I only know what Warhammer World is. I know that GW supposedly has some stores, somewhere, but I've never actually seen one. I've only ever seen any GW products through third parties like flgs and websites like BOLS, yet GW actively persecutes these places.

If you managed to get into the hobby without anything beyond WD, and never saw a store, does that not imply they have a sufficient level of promotion - it hooked you in?

You might happen to live in the one place in the world where GW actually does stuff, but if you move literally anywhere else, you're out of luck.



I'd just like to point out that your beloved fluff is pretty blatantly ripped off of other, earlier sources. Mostly Dune, with some Starship Troopers and a few other things mixed in. But virtually nothing in 40k is original, and it's not just taken from other sources in the 'inspired by' sense, it's taken from other sources in the 'well, we call our galaxy spanning empire the Imperium instead' sort of way.

GW fluff is indeed heavily inspired by all sorts of sources, even rips off some. If you read Rogue Trader, they explain that there was a lot of images of conversions and stuff based on other companies kits, toys etc. So as not to breach IP of other people, they changed to the B&W pictures all the way through. CHS deliberately went out to copy not the fluff, but the actual products. It doesn't even have its own fluff or fluff masquerading as original but actually ripped off - it just has copies of stuff GW designed. There is a subtle difference.



PP does infinitely more to promote its community than I've ever seen GW do. You've also obviously never played any scenario games, and you also seem to be mistaking your dislike of steampunk for an actual valid argument to a lack of quality of their setting. While you might not like the general way in which Warmahordes plays, you also cannot take more than cursory glance at their rules compared to GWs and immediately see that PP actually gives a damn about the quality of their rules, while GW doesn't.

Plus, if you're going to compare to GW, no **** they're small and don't have as much fluff. GW has something like 2000 employees worldwide, and has been around for 30 years. PP has been around for about a decade, and might have 100 employees.

But as I mentioned, PP also openly promotes gaming events of all types all across the US.

I have never seen PP do anything in the UK. Even the indy tournaments and shows I have been to, which don't have GW input, don't have PP input. I reckon this is simply a US/UK difference.



Because that's what a huge percentage of their market asks for. It's not about being competitive. It's about having well balanced, well written rules that aren't full of idiocy and rage-inducing loopholes. Which is not what GW provides.

If we all know the rules are so bad, why do this huge percentage of their market persist? Its like saying to your Ford Dealer thanks for that, I'd prefer it if you made a Nissan Qashqai instead of a Mondeo.



So, what, they're intentionally making ****ty rules? Because I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play any expansions or any missions outside of the standard 6, except when a tournament makes up its own missions. Heck, PP does a better job forging a rock hard narrative than GW does with its Tier lists, where it actually lays out what you can and can't take if you want to make use of some character's fluff. Compared to GW, and every DA army is Deathwing, half the GK armies are either Purifier Spam or Draigo and friends, and so on.

You must play some dull matches - I play about 30% battle missions, 20% DLC missions, special missions as found in things like my Black Legion Codex. I have played the odd scenario from the tourney scene and found them overly convoluted and complicated with tertiary objectives.



Plus, while GW takes some undeserved flak for their business practices from armchair economists, GW does have a number of business practices that several real-life business guys who I know have managed companies/divisions that make GW looks like a mom and pop business scratch their head at. And if their revenue shortfalls continue, they're going to need to revamp their business plan.

The proof will be in the pudding - if this UK company with a legal mandate to operate responsibly on behalf of the shareholders, thinks their current business plan is unsustainable, they will change it. If they don't it implies it is working sufficiently well to allow them to discharge their duty of care to the shareholders.

Chill Winston.