Void Shielding and Markerlights

[Anggul]

Not to mention so many characters who should be great in challenges actually being really bad at them. Looking at you Succubi and Autarchs. That said, they're just generally not as good at combat as they should be, not specifically challenges.

[DarkLink]

Challenges exist to balance the power if ICs and hidden powerfists vs large monstrous characters without a unit to hide in.

...because they needed to make MCs better? Heck, most MCs in the game aren't ​characters.

[dirkspair]

The earlier editions had that and whilst it made sense i don't know if it actually made it any fun. You would have a chart that was BS and target size, plus you had modifiers for cover and movement. Have you played Battlefleet gothic? Not exactly thrilling stuff.

Battlefleet Gothic is the game 40k should be, simple, elegant and relying on strategy and tactics, not on cheese and gimmicks. And because it is so perfect it went the way of the dodo bird, once the game is good there is no need for more stuff once you have the basics. 40k needs a new edition every few years because they purposely build flaws into it that need to be "fixed" while a brand new set of flaws get introduced.

[evilamericorp]

...because they needed to make MCs better? Heck, most MCs in the game aren't ​characters.

Without challenges, you have to kill every other member of a squad before you can touch the one model that can hurt you, and often die in the process. It makes sense for hive tyrants or daemon princes to be able to selectively kill threats, not get whittled to death by a 40 point sergeant.

[DarkLink]

It makes no sense for the rest of the squad to just stand by. Plus, the result is that units like Tactical Marines become virtually useless in assault because their only means of doing any real damage just became completely useless, and now the only reason to ever, ever, ever take any sort of veteran upgrade is for the bonus Ld, and maaaaybe meltabombs.

And, again, most MCs are not Characters.

[Anggul]

But at the same time it makes no sense that a random harmless Sergeant could hold off said Hive Tyrant for a turn, preventing it from just cleaving through half of the squad. It works both ways. I would never take Power Fists on Sergeants any more because of challenges. A character with one paired with a Lightning Claw yes, a squad member such as a Terminator, Death Company and so on yes, but not a squad leader that will be in challenges. Challenges basically eliminated the hidden Power Fist from lists and made it so the resultant less punchy Sergeant will be a nonsensical speed bump for the big killy thing.

I'm sure there's a better way of solving the issues. Having challenges in 40k is just silly. It is not a galaxy of honour and pride, it's a galaxy of slaughter and hate, and aliens that have no concept of a one-on-one challenge, they just want to kill you in the most efficient way possible. Also if your leader is blatantly going to be ripped in half by that giant monster, you don't just stand there cheering him on, you jump in and help! Just increase the chance of Precision Strike maybe? I don't know, it would take a fair bit of thought.

[DarkLink]

Right, that's kind of my point, it's extremely arbitrary and generally an overly complex, pointless game mechanic that really doesn't have a place.

If you have a problem with hidden power fists, well, there's this neat little rule they introduced called Precision Shot. Problem solved (yes, I know that you can currently LOS them, but we're talking about changing rules here, so there's no reason that couldn't change as well, or maybe LOS itself nerfed from the 4+ it currently is).

[John Bower]

Right, that's kind of my point, it's extremely arbitrary and generally an overly complex, pointless game mechanic that really doesn't have a place.

If you have a problem with hidden power fists, well, there's this neat little rule they introduced called Precision Shot. Problem solved (yes, I know that you can currently LOS them, but we're talking about changing rules here, so there's no reason that couldn't change as well, or maybe LOS itself nerfed from the 4+ it currently is).

I'd nerf LoS in so many ways, situations where it's dumb, CC for example shouldn't have it, nor should sniper rifles allow it, and certainly not flamers, sorry you can't jump between a gout of flame and your sarge, anymore than you can get in the way of a blast weapon. I think all snipers by the same token should be at least hit on a 3+, after all you don't give just any grunt a sniper rifle, even in the fluff the snipers are the best shots in the platoon. What IG particularly need to counter this is 'snper teams' of 2 guys per team, like a heavy weapon team, a spotter and a sniper, both BS4 or upgradeable perhaps to BS5 for a reasonable cost. The rifle itself isn't too bad, except a 5 or 6 to wound should be rending and a double 6 (hit and wound) cause ID. That way it wouldn't be unreasonable to cost 100 points for a sniper team, with a 25 point upgrade for the BS5. Powerful sure, but expensive to boot.

[DWest]

The problem with making sniper rifles that good is it would make sniper units bad. I regularly play against a buddy who runs GK as an allied contingent, and loves his Vindicare, and every game he pouts and goes "why did you kill the Vindy on turn 1?" and I reply "because otherwise, he's going to be sniping ~200 points out of my army each turn". Sniper weapons as-is are good enough to do something different than normal, and yet still weak enough that they have a chance to live through Turn 1 and get to shoot.

Keep in mind that what we are playing is a *simulation* of warfighting, which has then been further compromised in the sake of simplicity, balance, and enjoyment (you may argue as to whether it has succeeded in those categories, but the intent is there). LOS and Challenges are the same thing- they're intended to add a tool to your kit of actions and reactions in the game world, not accurately simulate how people would act (even taking into account 38,000 years of evolution, genetic manipulation, aliens, etc). In the real world, studies from WWII showed pretty reliably that in a given combat situation only roughly 20% of soldiers would actually shoot their weapons, even at a clear target, even when the enemy was shooting them. So for accuracy's sake, we could add a chart allowing only 20% of a unit to shoot, perhaps modified by Ld and/or bonus for shooting at units not a member of your species, but I don't see that adding to the enjoyment of the game.

[John Bower]

The problem with making sniper rifles that good is it would make sniper units bad. I regularly play against a buddy who runs GK as an allied contingent, and loves his Vindicare, and every game he pouts and goes "why did you kill the Vindy on turn 1?" and I reply "because otherwise, he's going to be sniping ~200 points out of my army each turn". Sniper weapons as-is are good enough to do something different than normal, and yet still weak enough that they have a chance to live through Turn 1 and get to shoot.

Keep in mind that what we are playing is a *simulation* of warfighting, which has then been further compromised in the sake of simplicity, balance, and enjoyment (you may argue as to whether it has succeeded in those categories, but the intent is there). LOS and Challenges are the same thing- they're intended to add a tool to your kit of actions and reactions in the game world, not accurately simulate how people would act (even taking into account 38,000 years of evolution, genetic manipulation, aliens, etc). In the real world, studies from WWII showed pretty reliably that in a given combat situation only roughly 20% of soldiers would actually shoot their weapons, even at a clear target, even when the enemy was shooting them. So for accuracy's sake, we could add a chart allowing only 20% of a unit to shoot, perhaps modified by Ld and/or bonus for shooting at units not a member of your species, but I don't see that adding to the enjoyment of the game.

At least that last part explains why you only hit on a 4+ with guardsmen, when even I could shoot in a simulated combat zone as good as that with no training. (Yes a proper simulation, not on PC, it was an army trainer, overseen by Army sergeants, who even yelled at my mate for trying to fire an SA80 left handed). The art of using a Vindicare is not to have him out in the open, if he's dying on turn 1 he's either incredibly unlucky every time or he's not in the right cover. That guy should be getting close to a 2+ cover save and therefore damned hard to kill with all but a lucky shot from an ID weapon.