Custodians vs. Techmarines

[Nabterayl]

Hey guys,

I have a background question that maybe some of the older gamers here can help me figure out. Games Workshop has a definite thread of depicting space marine vehicle crews as techmarines - or at least having them display the opus machina. Yet the times we get to see into the Armory's TO, there are not nearly enough techmarines to provide vehicle crews for even two strike forces at once. As early as 2004, Imperial Armour discusse this at length, and made clear that the codex arrangement for vehicle crews (from Rhinos to battle barges) is to use "regular" marines from a line or reserve company, rather than specialists from the armory. As far as I know the issue is rarely explicitly discussed in space marine novels, but GW continues to put techmarine-like iconography on vehicle crews.

Does anybody know what the real-world source of this disconnect is? Alternatively, is anybody aware of novels that explicitly call vehicle crews techmarines? If not, I suppose there's nothing to say that a tactical marine assigned as custodian couldn't alter his armor to reflect his new, temporary role (rather like Deathwatch marines do).

[Tynskel]

I would venture to guess that the iconography is like the iconography that separates marine from commander/librarian/techmarine/chaplain/sgt, etc.

The iconography suggest that this marine is a pilot, and is affiliated with the techmarine due to their affinity with machines.

don't forget the tactical symbols, as well as, devastator, assault, and veteran iconography.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'd agree with Tynskel; if you hook your brain into the Machine, you wear the mark of the Machine. Or the Machine Spirit will cry oily tears and the rhino's axel will snap.

[Tynskel]

Space Marines have enormous autonomy while on the battlefield. They work as units because of the effects of 'force multipliers'. However, before a battle, Space Marines look to their leaders for tactical and strategic goals. Of course everyone is subject to the Captain's commands, but each respective unit has its own chain of command; I would venture to guess that Techmarines are giving last minute suggestions/orders to vehicle pilots, not Commanders/Chaplains/Librarians, or other units associated with command.

[JamesP]

I suspect there's been a design decision at some stage to sculpt vehicle crew with the Opus Machina etc and the background has taken a different direction.

I think that depictions of the number of Marines in a Chapter always have to be taken with a pinch of salt. For example, the Chapter breakdowns that I've seen have the apparent problem of insufficient Techmarines to provide vehicle crews, as you've noticed, but also doesn't account for Marines commanding fleet vessels (say at least 1 per escort class, more for Strike Cruisers and again more for Battle Barges), on detached duty with Deathwatch or even overseeing their fortress-monastery's defences, though the latter could be done by whichever company was currently stationed there.

In Grey Hunter, Thunderhawk Pilots are specifically referred to as Grey Hunters and in Battle for the Fang, a Wolf Scout commands a SM escort class/ rapid strike vessel but Space Wolf Iron Priests play a somewhat different role to Techmarines. In the Ultramarines books, it is a Marine rather than a Techmarine who commands the recurring Strike Cruiser.

I don't have the SM Codex so perhaps someone can answer this. the Ultramarines vehicle-driving special character, is he described as a Techmarine or a Marine?

[Nabterayl]

I suspect there's been a design decision at some stage to sculpt vehicle crew with the Opus Machina etc and the background has taken a different direction.

I think that depictions of the number of Marines in a Chapter always have to be taken with a pinch of salt. For example, the Chapter breakdowns that I've seen have the apparent problem of insufficient Techmarines to provide vehicle crews, as you've noticed, but also doesn't account for Marines commanding fleet vessels (say at least 1 per escort class, more for Strike Cruisers and again more for Battle Barges), on detached duty with Deathwatch or even overseeing their fortress-monastery's defences, though the latter could be done by whichever company was currently stationed there.

Imperial Armour Volume 2 goes into this as well, as does Battlefleet Gothic. There basically aren't any space marines aboard chapter vessels - just enough to provide the very highest echelon of officers, so you really do have about one marine per rapid strike vessel, and perhaps as many as two squads per battle barge. The rest of the crew are serfs and servitors. While this may seem an inefficient use of men, IA2 is pretty clear. It also has satisfying thematic echoes of Starship Troopers (where a person is only eligible to run for Sky Marshall if s/he's commanded both an Army regiment and a Navy capital ship), the space-marine-as-commando trope (from the origins of British commandos, where "commando" is not a full-time job as such, but a qualification that a soldier had), the Codex Astartes (whose point, after all, was to hobble space marines' inefficiency rather than enhance it), and the Imperium's deliberately hilarious military organization in general (i.e., space marine chapters may be efficient, responsive commando units - but only compared to the Imperial Guard).

In Grey Hunter, Thunderhawk Pilots are specifically referred to as Grey Hunters and in Battle for the Fang, a Wolf Scout commands a SM escort class/ rapid strike vessel but Space Wolf Iron Priests play a somewhat different role to Techmarines. In the Ultramarines books, it is a Marine rather than a Techmarine who commands the recurring Strike Cruiser.

Well, that certainly corroborates Imperial Armour's explanation.

I don't have the SM Codex so perhaps someone can answer this. the Ultramarines vehicle-driving special character, is he described as a Techmarine or a Marine?

Well, Sergeant Chronus is described as a "sergeant," and it's said that "For a Space Marine to be assigned to serve in the armoury is an honor indeed ... it is a transition that few Battle-Brothers are able to make" (emphasis mine) and "That the Rage survived at all was the cause of much wonderment in the Techmarines who repaired the tank's extensive damage."

From the fact that he's a sergeant and made a "transition" to the chapter Armory, it seems that Chronus was a line marine (presumably a veteran sergeant, since he wears terminator honors) who was transferred to the Armory, rather than a techmarine who became a famous tank commander. No word on whether other chapters also assign line marines to the Armory sometimes, though it does fit in with the Ultramarines' apparent passion for creating special organizations within their chapter (c.f. the Tyrannic War veterans of Chaplain Cassius, and the fact that the Ultramarines novels have a strike cruiser commander who has apparently spent his entire career as a "Navy" man). The Tyrannic War veterans are not their own company but a "qualification" that Ultramarines can have, so perhaps the Ultramarines (and perhaps other chapters) sometimes assign a man to more than one organization - e.g., just as a Tyrannic War veteran could be a TWV and a tactical marine of Third Company, perhaps people like Sergeant Chronus are assigned to the Armory and First Company, say.

[wittdooley]

Remember also that all Astartes have this "basic vehicle training" programmed into them when do their Matrix Upload thing. That's not to say they're experts, but they have the base knowledge on how to operate them. This is corroborated in Fear to Tread when Meros has to take over piloting the dropship they're in when the pilot kills himself.

I think Nab's explanation is a really good one, and I imagine the Opus Mechanicus is simply a designator of ability. With that in mind, perhaps it would be cool to incorporate that iconography in smaller places on the armour rather than as a full shoulder mark.

[JamesP]

Remember also that all Astartes have this "basic vehicle training" programmed into them when do their Matrix Upload thing. That's not to say they're experts, but they have the base knowledge on how to operate them. This is corroborated in Fear to Tread when Meros has to take over piloting the dropship they're in when the pilot kills himself.

My favorite example of Marines taking over vehicles is in Ian Watson's Space Marine, where the Imperial Fists take over a Titan after eating the crew to gain their skills. Does anyone know if that got edited out of the later edition?

[JamesP]

Imperial Armour Volume 2 goes into this as well, as does Battlefleet Gothic. There basically aren't any space marines aboard chapter vessels - just enough to provide the very highest echelon of officers, so you really do have about one marine per rapid strike vessel, and perhaps as many as two squads per battle barge. The rest of the crew are serfs and servitors.

That's really interesting. I knew about the BFG stuff - hence my remark about Marines commanding rather than crewing ships and my comments on the numbers involved - but wasn't aware that the IA books had covered this also. I think your explanation fits very well with what we know and also explains why a Company might have , say, 10 Marines detached to operate Armoury vehicles or command Fleet elements but still is listed on the organisational chart as consisting of 10 Squads of 10 Marines each: the Company role is what counts, anything else is just an assignment.

the Codex Astartes (whose point, after all, was to hobble space marines' inefficiency rather than enhance it)

You raise an interesting point and one that I hope the HH series touches upon. From reading the published books, we know that the Codex Astartes was originally meant to be a record of all of Guilliman's military wisdom and that is how it is generally spoken about in the M41 40K universe. But we also know that he added to it post-Heresy to help make sure that the Marines were less likely to rebel and capable of doing less damage if they did. It would be nice to see some of the denizens of the 40K universe acknowledge the latter aspects of it more often.

and the Imperium's deliberately hilarious military organization in general (i.e., space marine chapters may be efficient, responsive commando units - but only compared to the Imperial Guard).

I'm fairly sure the Administratum only exists to make the Guard look fluid, innovative and quick to react.