Where's the goodwill?

[Psychosplodge]

But its not £40-£50 for a game from EA or activision it's £40-£50 for half a game, and who knows how much to download the rest of it

[GravesDisease]

Why aren't people talking about the models? We are talking Games Workshop the tabletop miniatures company right? I thought there was an implicit concession we have all made when playing with our toy soldiers that we forgo a perfect rules system or a precise balance so that we can pretend to be an army general ordering soldiers to their death. Card games, board games and computer games are all superior to anything a miniatures game could produce rules wise - we all need to let go of this.

Well what is the defining thing about GW products then compared to other games companies then? The high quality posable models, all delivered by this "evil monolithic corporation" that invests heavily into the supply chain.

Whilst i wish GW kits were cheaper so I could buy more of them, I am kind of glad that they don't read forums. If people on the internet had their way, it would be a race to a bottom.

[DWest]

Card games, board games and computer games are all superior to anything a miniatures game could produce rules wise - we all need to let go of this.

What games are you playing, if I may ask? I personally am invested heavily in tabletop miniatures *because* they beat the pants off any card, board, or computer game I've seen.

[GravesDisease]

DOTA2 and Hearthstone at the moment. Before that, Street fighter and Starcraft2. These games get tweaked every patched every few months by incredibly minute details like +5 mana cost or -10hp on a character that has hundreds. They don't have to wait 2 years for an updated ruleset.

Additionally, they take defined set inputs and are not reliant on a person measuring something and bending down attempting to see whether they are in Line-of-Sight or not. They are able to decide whether a target is occluded down to the pixel level.

[ElectricPaladin]

I can't really get into video games. They aren't as engaging as games I get to play with real live people. I don't care about perfect computer-like precision in my tactical games... but I do want a rules set that functions, creates a more-or-less balanced game, and helps everyone to avoid the dreaded NGE: Negative Game Experience, a loss - or, more rarely, a win - that just isn't fun along the way.

40k does not reliably do this at this time.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I can't really get into video games. They aren't as engaging as games I get to play with real live people. I don't care about perfect computer-like precision in my tactical games... but I do want a rules set that functions, creates a more-or-less balanced game, and helps everyone to avoid the dreaded NGE: Negative Game Experience, a loss - or, more rarely, a win - that just isn't fun along the way.

40k does not reliably do this at this time.

I would go so far as to say that in my experience this has NEVER been the case with GWs rules.
Not that I really care, because I'm pretty much all about the painting and modelling.
That said I can see why it bothers people.

I think the issue is unapologetic behavior.
When you screw up you should admit it, when you upset people you should say sorry, so they need to.
They never ever do, that's the issue for me anyway.
The rest is dressing.

[ElectricPaladin]

I would go so far as to say that in my experience this has NEVER been the case with GWs rules.
Not that I really care, because I'm pretty much all about the painting and modelling.
That said I can see why it bothers people.

An opinion is one thing, but... man, "you're wrong, but I have no stake in what you're talking about" is in kind of bad taste. If you don't really care about the rules, you have no business telling me not to be upset that they don't work as well as I should. How would you feel if a guy who pretty much always buys his models responded to your complaint that the models were hard to paint with "well, I don't really paint my own models very often, but you're wrong - the models are fine."

Not trying to start anything, but you might want to consider in this the future. If you don't have a stake and don't really care, then your opinion isn't really worth the pixels it's printed on.

[DWest]

Those are pretty much what drove me away from computer gaming- I can't speak to DOTA 2, but having made the mistake of trying LoL, there is no strategy or tactics beyond "do what the guides tell you to do with your character" and the community was toxic beyond belief. Fighting games and RTS games feel extremely formulaic to me, and both increasingly rely on twitch reflexes, whereas biology is increasingly taking the same away from me. What I'd really like is a game where maneuver and tactics matter, and where reacting to your opponent means something other than "keep doing what you were doing and hope you get done first". I'm in no way claiming that 40k provides that type of experience all the time, but it still comes a lot closer than anything I've found in computer games. I would list XCOM as coming very close to this ideal, except for one problem, which is always a danger with a computer game: the system "cheats" in that if you start winning too often, improbably rare events start happening every turn. Yes, a 40k player can cheat, but I can exclude a cheater from my list of opponents; I can't exactly decompile a computer program and clean out the shenanigans.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

An opinion is one thing, but... man, "you're wrong, but I have no stake in what you're talking about" is in kind of bad taste. If you don't really care about the rules, you have no business telling me not to be upset that they don't work as well as I should. How would you feel if a guy who pretty much always buys his models responded to your complaint that the models were hard to paint with "well, I don't really paint my own models very often, but you're wrong - the models are fine."

Not trying to start anything, but you might want to consider in this the future. If you don't have a stake and don't really care, then your opinion isn't really worth the pixels it's printed on.

Man, you took that massively personally. And I think you're misreading me.
I don't think GW's rules have EVER been balanced. I've played every incarnation, and they never were IMO.
I'm not your arch typical competitive player, i rarely take part in more that two tourneys a year, but I do play.
I just don't think of myself as a "serious" gamer, because my primary love is painting and modelling.
And while because of that it doesn't bug me I can totally see why it bugs other people.

So to clarify what I said was;
Yeah you're right. Don't bother me much tho.
(P.S. When trying "not to start anything" don't end your post with an angry statement, it's pure troll bait.)
Since we agree however, i doubt we'll be arguing today

[ElectricPaladin]

Man, you took that massively personally. And I think you're misreading me.
I don't think GW's rules have EVER been balanced. I've played every incarnation, and they never were IMO.
I'm not your arch typical competitive player, i rarely take part in more that two tourneys a year, but I do play.
I just don't think of myself as a "serious" gamer, because my primary love is painting and modelling.
And while because of that it doesn't bug me I can totally see why it bugs other people.

So to clarify what I said was;
Yeah you're right. Don't bother me much tho.
(P.S. When trying "not to start anything" don't end your post with an angry statement, it's pure troll bait.)
Since we agree however, i doubt we'll be arguing today

I'm sorry, man. It's been a rough week. It does sound like we meet in the middle though.

I'd also like to clarify that I fully support your right to not care about a given facet of the game. Don't care about the rules? That's wonderful. You go to town with your bad, not caring about the rules self.

Personally, I enjoy Warhammer 40k as a beer and pretzels game, and I have no problem with that being GW's goal. The trouble, I think, is that it doesn't actually function well in that role for several reasons:

1) The cost of the game is just too high for it to be just beer and pretzels. This doesn't bother me as much, but for a lot of people they want a game they have already invested thousands of dollars in to be a "serious" game.
2) Beer and pretzels games want to maximize the fun factor and minimize the chance of the dreaded NGE. 40k does neither of these. The turns drag on and on, and let me tell you... if you have ever stared down a bad matchup, or Grey Knights or Necrons in their heyday, or one of those awful Ally combos, then you know that GW hasn't done enough to prevent the NGE.
3) In a B&P game, you want to identify strongly and passionately with the army(ies) of your choice. When armies go years without updates and are allowed to linger in nigh-unplayable states, it seriously hurts your ability to have fun with the game, playing with the models you bought and love.

Anyway - sorry if I overdid it. I do think that my point stands in relation to your original post, but now that I see what you really meant, I realize that it was inapplicable.