Where's the goodwill?

[GravesDisease]

..there is no strategy or tactics beyond "do what the guides tell you to do with your character" and the community was toxic beyond belief.... Fighting games and RTS games feel extremely formulaic to me,

Mono-builds and awful community? Are you sure you aren't talking about 40k?

Tabletop gaming will always be more random than within a computer or chessboard, for reasons i mentioned before but i'm sure your imagination can come up with more. The absence of this is exactly what allows chessmasters to think 20 moves ahead, similarly to DOTA/Lol/Hearthstone/Starcraft style games with your Rush/Mid/Late game concerns.

For this reason i think it's silly to get mad at GW for having a ruleset that favours randomness heavily, it's what we all signed up for.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I'm sorry, man. It's been a rough week. It does sound like we meet in the middle though.

I'd also like to clarify that I fully support your right to not care about a given facet of the game. Don't care about the rules? That's wonderful. You go to town with your bad, not caring about the rules self.

Anyway - sorry if I overdid it. I do think that my point stands in relation to your original post, but now that I see what you really meant, I realize that it was inapplicable.

Sorry to hear that EP, hope it improves.
I've clipped your post down here because you have just exemplified why I love BOLS, and i wanted to address it.
You listened and were reasonable.
That's so freaking rare on the internet.

1)Yeah it's way too expensive for a pick-up and play game.
2)I'm firmly in the "players make the game" camp. And from experience it really doesn't matter what game people play there's always that douche face who ruins the fun. Yeah GW COULD tighten the rules up nice and solid, and the That Guys of this world would have less to access. BUT no matter how tight they run them they'll still play the game. I once played chess with a guy who smack talked the entire way through. Shockingly I never did that again, put me right off chess club (Yes I was THAT cool).
3)Yo! I've played DE for a long while now, and know that pain.

[DWest]

Mono-builds and awful community? Are you sure you aren't talking about 40k?

Sadly, no. I'll take the worst day of trolling here on BOLS vs. a good day on the LoL forums. And that's a terrifying thought.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm firmly in the "players make the game" camp. And from experience it really doesn't matter what game people play there's always that douche face who ruins the fun. Yeah GW COULD tighten the rules up nice and solid, and the That Guys of this world would have less to access. BUT no matter how tight they run them they'll still play the game. I once played chess with a guy who smack talked the entire way through. Shockingly I never did that again, put me right off chess club (Yes I was THAT cool).

It's true that no game system is douche-proof, but there's a lot GW could do to make their game more douche-resistant.

[Caitsidhe]

Why aren't people talking about the models? We are talking Games Workshop the tabletop miniatures company right? I thought there was an implicit concession we have all made when playing with our toy soldiers that we forgo a perfect rules system or a precise balance so that we can pretend to be an army general ordering soldiers to their death. Card games, board games and computer games are all superior to anything a miniatures game could produce rules wise - we all need to let go of this.

To keep it short and to the point, I have never made any such concession. I want the whole package, and I suspect I'm not alone. For the record, while I feel their models in the whole line are consistently better than the competition, they no longer hold the top spot in my eyes for individual models. I've been (as have many others) been buying from others for use or conversion models from countless independents and putting them on the table. The best looking models I see are almost always from someone else or a unique build.

I am a customer. Games Workshop is a vendor. When they don't provide me what I want, I get it somewhere else. I (and many others) have been doing just that with greater regularity. I'm looking forward to another Kickstarter on Feb. 1st in fact where some really nice big monsters and dragons are about to become available.

Well what is the defining thing about GW products then compared to other games companies then? The high quality posable models, all delivered by this "evil monolithic corporation" that invests heavily into the supply chain.

I don't think they invest heavily in the supply chain at all. They expect individual points of sale to invest in them. This is not unlike expecting us (the consumer) to pay for a magazine that is nothing but a advertisements. There may have been a time when Games Workshop did as you indicate but that is long past.

Whilst i wish GW kits were cheaper so I could buy more of them, I am kind of glad that they don't read forums. If people on the internet had their way, it would be a race to a bottom.

Actually, no. It would be a race to the top, i.e. quality miniatures, game system, and customer service. They should (and I believe they do) read the forums because they aren't providing the full package. A monopoly on the market was theirs to lose and they have done a very good job of letting it go. The reason we see growing competition is simply because people are unhappy. If you don't fill the need, another vendor will. That competition will always have the advantage of using the newest technology to catch up (and surpass) older companies. It is called innovation and the free market. Good will has to be earned. Games Workshop did earn some over the years. They have also largely used that savings up and have not continued to earn more.

[ElectricPaladin]

Remember that "reads the forums" and "responds to customer needs and complaints" does not equal "has no creative integrity" or "bows to every customer whim." Spartan, for example, made some changes to Firestorm Armada v2.0 that many fans are having a hard time adjusting to. Spartan has not bowed immediately. They have enough confidence in their product to believe that things will get better with time. At the same time, however, they used the opportunity of v2.0 to adapt to many player complaints, had an extensive beta testing process with community feedback, and generally stay responsive to their customers' needs.

[Lexington]

People hate Valve, people absolutely hate Valve, people think Steam is evil and that Gabe Newell is a con artist.

Anywhere you look, any hobby, the big fish gets hated, its the way of the world with Nerds. The bigger and more successful a company gets, the more is expected of them and the more people invest in a hobby, the angrier they get when everything they want is catered for exactly how they want it.

I think this is the problem with GW's mentality, re: their fanbase. Do people hate Valve? Sure. Some people do. You'll never have universal acclaim for anything. [URL="http://whatever.scalzi.com/2014/01/26/every-award-winning-book-sucks-for-someone/"]Someone's[/URL] always going to hate you. One gets the feeling, however, that GW cannot accept that they'll never please everyone, so they listen to no one.

This is ugly business, and it becomes a fulfilling prophecy. After all, who loves GW? Almost no one. The fanbase is famously at odds with the company, and even GW's defenders don't seem to love the company. More often than anything, they act like political hatchet-men, diving into discussions specifically to make sure that anyone with complaints about GW are sufficiently berated and ostracized, all for a cheap sense of faux-cynical superiority. There seems to be little genuine enjoyment with how the company operates overall, and that's a pretty bad place to be.

[satxbrian]

Ok, first post….I know, jumping into the deep end.

I’m a new player. I’m a few kits away from building my first 1850 pts ork army. Yes, I am very excited. Filled with the kits that I like…it probably won’t be competitive at the local game store level (I have no plans to play in tournaments), but I’m having a blast building and painting. I’m having a blast reading my codex and rulebook…I even bought a Stompa that I hope I can play at some point once I get a few “normal” games under my belt.

I can’t speak to rules/codex balance…I haven’t played my first game yet. I want my first game to be with a fully painted army. So maybe a lot of you will dismiss my comments, if so, you can skip to the next post.

But, I do think I can speak to price complaints. I don’t get it. Look, I’m coming at this hobby from scale model building, primarily 1/48 and 1/32 scale aircraft (a mix of WWII and modern). You want to talk about price?!? In 1/48, it is not uncommon to spend upwards of $100 on a new kit…hell, even on a 20 year old kit.

Example: The Tamiya 1/48 F-16, considered my most to be the best kit on the market in 1/48 for the Viper. The C/N Aggressor boxing has an MSRP of $74.00. (online it can be found for around $60). This kit basically allows you to build any block of the Viper from a Block 25 to a Block 52. Want a block 40 with the WAR HUD, GE engine and Big Mouth intake? This is the Kit. But, since it is the aggressor boxing it has no weapons. You have to either trade for the weapons from the ANG kit , buy the ANG kit (MSRP $73), raid your spares box, get a Hasegawa weapons kit or build it clean. Once that kit is built, it sits on a shelf and may come off for a trip to local contest. With that said, it didn’t stop me from buying multiple copies of the kit because of one simple fact, I love the F-16!
Any F/A-18 Hornet fans? The Hasegawa kit is probably the #1 kit. It’s at least 10-15 years old. MSRP of a “new” boxing? $100. This is the same plastic just with new decals.
And then in 1/32? The benchmark kit (IMHO), the Tamiya P-51 Mustang. Beautiful kit. Amazing detail. Options. This kit has it. The newest boxing has an MSRP of $218.00, online at my favorite e-tailer, $169.99. The new Trumpeter 1/32 A-6. MSRP $240, online price $191.99.

This doesn’t take into account aftermarket. Resin cockpit? Decals? Resin wheels? Photoetch?…etc…

My point? Well, when you factor in build time, paint time, and play time, in my mind, the cost per hour spent on those 3 things is pretty small for 40k. Ok, so I can hear, “You don’t have to buy multiple copies of those kits to make an army like in 40k/WFB.” Not true, I have decals for at least 4 357th P-51s in 1/32 scale. I have a drawer full of F-16 Decals. I’ll be buying multiple kits for these 2 planes. Yes, that is my choice.

So with that said, $40 for a box of tactical marines is pretty doable. $29 for a box of boyz? Impulse buy area (IMHO). I assume the boyz kit will jump to $40 with the new codex release, but if it is a new tooling like the marine box, I’m ok with that.

Sure there are things that may be expensive (I’m thinking of starting a second army…maybe Eldar (love the models) and I really want a wraith knight, but at $115, I’ll have to plan for that purchase). The books are pricy. But I can’t really say anything about that since I have a shelf of reference books for aircraft and most photography books are in that $40-$70 range depending on what you are looking for.

Do I wish things were cheaper, sure. I’d also like the new C7 Sting Ray to be cheaper….

Some may say it’s apples and oranges, but I look at it as similar. At it’s very base, it’s a plastic model kit. Anything plastic has gone up in price recently. Model kits, etc…

When I started researching this game, I never thought of it as a pick-up and play game. It’s like getting into photography and complaining about the prices of camera bodies and fast glass. GW kits are beautifully molded. When I opened the new Tac marine box I was blown away. I compared it to Tamiya quality molding. I just wish the sprue attachment points were smaller.

I am in no way saying that any one here is wrong. We are all entitled to our own opinions. This is just my opinion. I’m not rich, just a middle class guy who was pulled in by the models and stayed for the game. I got into this for fun. I wanted a fun hobby that would get me outside my bubble and hopefully get me some new friends that I could have some fun games with.

Take care, everyone! Looking forward to talking about 40K with everyone!!

Brian

[Mr Mystery]

I don't get the hate myself.

Granted, I'm a three-time former employee, so have a different perspective.

But even then, they're just a company. If you like their product, fair enough. If you don't like the company, fair enough.

But the bile directed at them is quite baffling to me. It's as if some just don't grasp that they are a company, and doing nothing the other companies don't do, namely seeking the highest possible level of profit. Sometimes that annoys people, and with the size of their player base, that's a lot of people to potentially annoy, compared to the rest of the market. Yet there seems to be those who treat every decision made by GW, regardless of what it actually is or the reasoning behind it, to be some sort of carefully calculated personal insult.

Me, I'm happy enough just enjoying my hobby. The company responsible don't irk me one iota. If they did, I personally wouldn't buy their product. Take Nestle. They have been a company of dubious morality, so I choose to avoid their products wherever possible, even if I don't always stick to that (damn you peanut butter KitKat chunky!). GW? Some of their detractors strike me as 'typing one handed' when posting. Not all by any stretch, but some.

[ElectricPaladin]

But the bile directed at them is quite baffling to me. It's as if some just don't grasp that they are a company, and doing nothing the other companies don't do, namely seeking the highest possible level of profit. Sometimes that annoys people, and with the size of their player base, that's a lot of people to potentially annoy, compared to the rest of the market. Yet there seems to be those who treat every decision made by GW, regardless of what it actually is or the reasoning behind it, to be some sort of carefully calculated personal insult.

It's a short term vs. long term problem.

We all want GW to make money for their trouble, but I think we would prefer it if it felt like they were doing that by making the best decisions for the game, which would have the long term effect of creating a healthy community for the passtime, and making them money over many years. It feels - to us - like they are making decisions that benefit them in the short term but hurt the game - and our enjoyment of it - in the long term.